Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#21

Post by random5634 » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that

Police unions may protect bad apples via union.

Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized schools seem to be coming up with innovate workaround during pandemic (outside / park / hiking classrooms etc).

Absolutely horrendously drafted laws that make life miserable even for folks trying to do right (AB5, schools not allowed to keep reserves) that are union drafted, and require endless exceptions and modifications.

Google employees unionizing and striking and walking out and otherwise throwing very highly paid fits over things that don't connect with average person.

When you call what people have first hand experience of "propaganda" they may immediately will discount everything else you are saying.

The real rule should be all poorly compensated folks paid $14/hr or less should automatically be in unions. That's where the real need is.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#22

Post by vdnkh » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #16

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

On the off chance you're serious, here's Biden's union stance https://joebiden.com/empowerworkers/.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#23

Post by the-dude » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #16

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

You left out climate. In NW Europe it is no different : anything goes as long as it not labor.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#24

Post by ryanmercer » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #9

I have to imagine unions have a bit of an uphill battle right now, they took some major black eyes in 2020: - Police unions openly declaring war on their own citizens - Teachers unions causing general chaos in school reopening plans I understand that public sector unions are a different beast, but purely from an optics perspective I have to imagine public sentiment for unions can't be very high right now.

>Teachers unions causing general chaos in school reopening plans

Maybe out west but schools have been carrying on as normal here in Indiana. My wife is at school teaching right now, they've had exactly 1 day this school year where she didn't have to go to work (earlier this week) because 3 students physically cut the internet going into the building and they couldn't get repairs done in time to open that day.

Edit: I don't understand the downvotes... many schools across the country have been open for in-person school for the bulk of covid. This is a concrete fact.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#25

Post by filoleg » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #3

They should and should be making no less then $20 an hour to start!

> They should be making no less then $20 an hour to start!

This is a noble goal, and I am all for seeing it happen. But if you think it won't just give Amazon warehouses a stronger foothold, you are mistaken. I, personally, don't think it is necessarily a bad thing if Amazon warehouses gain more workers due to their conditions becoming better as a result of unionization. But quite a lot of people will disagree with that statement.

You know why, despite all those current awful-sounding conditions, people are still signing up to work at Amazon warehouses in droves? And no, it isn't because those workers are dumb and don't know what's better for them or because they are that desperate. It is because warehouse jobs are usually always somewhat hellish, and Amazon warehouse jobs tend to be a bit less hellish than other warehouse jobs, while paying quite a bit more. Bumping the pay up to $20/hr will make it even more not worth it to work any other warehouse jobs, when Amazon ones give you a no-brainer choice that is even better all around than before.

Again, not commenting on whether it would be a good or bad thing, just an observation. I, personally, think it would be a good thing if those workers got paid more and got better conditions. But the externalities of that decision (giving Amazon more power) might be a bit too much for a lot of people to swallow. I will admit, I haven't thought about those externalities much past what I have already described in this comment, so I definitely could be missing something. In which case, I would love to learn more about those, if someone has meaningful points to contribute to this discussion in the comments.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#26

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

I asked this in the google union thread, but was too late to the party to get any answers. Copy pasting it here:

Everybody here seems to agree that unions have the potential to do good or bad in every thread on it. The next logical step to me is that there needs to be a selection mechanism in place.

For companies, the selection mechanism is competition. If someone else does better, the consumer or worker can choose someone else. And we have anti-monopoly laws to make sure that that someone else exists, to foster that competition and choice.

Is there such a mechanism for unions? My ideal scenario wouldn't be me on my own as it is today. I'd want a handful of unions to pick from to represent me, not too differently from my choice of medical insurer. Five unions to represent 575,000 amazon warehouse workers would still average 115,000 members each, so it's a huge step forward in collective bargaining. And then people can change unions if one of them ends up how folks are worried about in every union thread.

It seems like it would get at all sides of the issue. We'd get collective representation and a safeguard against the potential pitfalls.

How could this scenario come about? Could it be something like medical insurance with an open enrollment season? There would need to be something akin to anti-competitive behavior built in, so you couldn't end up with an agreement saying you can only hire from our union. What else would it take?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#27

Post by j_walter » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #13

j_walter wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions in the US and unions is Europe are completely different. In one they cooperate to see that the company succeeds...and in the other they seek to drive up the cost of doing business to the point that shitty products are extremely expensive (GM, Ford). Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Now they protect the lazy, promote the w…

The quality of a union is a function of membership engagement and organizational structure. Shitty unions, shitty companies, these are all who is in charge and how they're governed and the transparency available. Better to admit we need better operating models for unions (and that unions need to work in partnership with management to create sustainable relationships and businesses), rigorous governance and oversight…

But in many cases you can't choose which union you have to do business with. Do work at this location you have to do business with this union. Many examples of unions fighting other unions because they think they should get the work.

I agree that better operating models could exist (more like European ones)...but the current unions in the US have a lot to lose by doing so.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#28

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #15

simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

what I'm astonished by is the degree to which American firms are allowed to sabotage unionisation efforts despite, as I understand it, the US actually having similar protections for workplace assembly as other Western countries. If you tried interfere with unions here in Germany you'd run up against the law, the media and so on very, very quickly, it's one of the things you don't want to screw with.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#29

Post by Jcampuzano2 » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #16

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

As far as I know they very much do support labor issues, they just haven't been as much of the flavor of the month lately due to the headlines of racial, transgender, and other related political issues since those usually garner more views in the media.

Part of the reason may be that the divide between Democrats and Republicans is much wider on those issues vs labor issues.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#30

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #27

toomuchtodo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quality of a union is a function of membership engagement and organizational structure. Shitty unions, shitty companies, these are all who is in charge and how they're governed and the transparency available. Better to admit we need better operating models for unions (and that unions need to work in partnership with management to create sustainable relationships and businesses), rigorous governance and oversight…

But in many cases you can't choose which union you have to do business with. Do work at this location you have to do business with this union. Many examples of unions fighting other unions because they think they should get the work. I agree that better operating models could exist (more like European ones)...but the current unions in the US have a lot to lose by doing so.

[deleted]