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Why cancer cells waste so much energy

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Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#121

Post by jgilias »

majkinetor wrote: post #80
jgilias wrote: post #31

Very interesting. Another result showing how increased NAD+ levels 'benefit' cancer cells casting a shadow on the idea of NAD+ boosting supplementation to increase healthspan and lifespan. But then, it's not like this means that heightened NAD+ levels cause cancer. Just that it is plausible that it makes it more aggressive, once you have it.

Why doubt? It only proves that supplements work as indented in prolonging eycariotic cell life. Its just that you don't want everything in your body to be boosted, just some - cancer is just one of those, you don't want various constituents of your body flora influenced as well, like parasites, harmful microbiota etc.

So the trick is figuring out how to boost the things you want to boost without boosting or preferably even inhibiting things you don't want to boost. Actually, this echoes what is sometimes said about curing cancer. That it's pretty easy to kill cancer. The problem is in keeping people alive in the process.

In either way, I'm pretty excited by all the recent findings and breakthroughs in both fields - longevity and figuring out cancer.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#122

Post by aficiomaquinas »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #99
aficiomaquinas wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very interesting book around the metabolic route for treating cancer. It's called "Starving cancer" by Jane McLelland. It talks about using over the counter drugs and supplements that have been studied for their metabolic blocking properties for cancer, as well as changing the diet to reduce as much as possible the nutrients that cancer craves the most according to their metabolic phenotype. Most of the ti…

If something is flagged by YouTube, it must be a really bad idea. Chlorine isn’t too bad in terms of toxicity, or it wouldn’t be added to drinking water and freely sold for all sorts of purposes. But there’s absolutely no reason to ingest it (or any other route of administration). I guess it’s exactly because of it’s ubiquity that those of a conspiratorial mindset like it so much: it fits with the idea that there are…

About the conspiratorial mindset, as you call it, for example, if YouTube censors “共匪” (“communist bandit”), then it must be a really bad idea, right? In which cases do you think it's reasonable not to trust YouTube blindly.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/26/21270290/youtube-deleting...

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#123

Post by peterdemic »

PeterisP wrote: post #84
peterdemic wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not entirely true... The prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to cells all over the body and it has no way of distinguishing cancel cells vs non-cancer cells. Targeted therapies are different and are becoming more widely used but are still small in percentage of patients compared to "classic" chemotherapy.

"the prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to cells all over the body" I'm not a doctor, but isn't the case that the prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to new/growing cells all over the body, which is a way of distinguishing cancer cells (and a few types of tissue e.g. hair) vs most types of non-cancer cells?

Yes, that's correct! My bad for not being more clear!

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#124

Post by mkrishnan »

mehrzad wrote: post #114
oedmarap wrote: post #107

Worth noting that unlike the cells of the human body, cancer cells are unable to utilize ketones as an energy source[0][1], hence the benefits of a ketogenic diet. A ketogenic diet can also be ideally coupled with intermittent fasting[2] in order to engage/enhance autophagy within the body. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375425/ [2] https://…

Back when I had cancer in 2015, I read about this effect but I also read there was some potential danger in the cancer cells adapting to ketosis and accelerating their growth, so I thought it seemed too risky. It seems like the research may have improved since then though to suggest some benefit.

Congrats.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#125

Post by wtetzner »

majkinetor wrote: post #74
calebkaiser wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point--I amended my original comment to specify folic acid. What you're saying about stable DNA makes sense. I'm curious, though, if the supplementation helps the body generate more NAD+ (relative to someone with a deficiency), and if that could help cancer proliferate in its earliest stages (hence why the correlation is most pronounced in people already likely to develop cancer--smokers).

That is the whole problem - everything that benefits your body, benefits cancer and vice-versa. Cancer forms all the time - body should handle it when functioning correctly (via immune system). NAD is essential for many functions, especially longevity as sirtuins require it for proper function. As far as I know only massive Vitamin C doses uniquely influence cancer in negative manner and get pretty much no effect on…

> Cancer forms all the time - body should handle it when functioning correctly (via immune system).

Is this why some people think fasting can help? It gives the body a chance to clean up cancer cells, since you have more time in a catabolic state?

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#126

Post by eloff »

mehrzad wrote: post #114
oedmarap wrote: post #107

Worth noting that unlike the cells of the human body, cancer cells are unable to utilize ketones as an energy source[0][1], hence the benefits of a ketogenic diet. A ketogenic diet can also be ideally coupled with intermittent fasting[2] in order to engage/enhance autophagy within the body. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375425/ [2] https://…

Back when I had cancer in 2015, I read about this effect but I also read there was some potential danger in the cancer cells adapting to ketosis and accelerating their growth, so I thought it seemed too risky. It seems like the research may have improved since then though to suggest some benefit.

I don't follow your logic there, cancer cells have an effective metabolism by default, so the chance that they can adapt to ketosis seems much better odds than the 100% that they're already adapted to your diet.

But I'm very glad that whatever your decision, you're still among the living! Cancer is a terrifying diagnosis.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#127

Post by JPLeRouzic »

aficiomaquinas wrote: post #120
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If something is flagged by YouTube, it must be a really bad idea. Chlorine isn’t too bad in terms of toxicity, or it wouldn’t be added to drinking water and freely sold for all sorts of purposes. But there’s absolutely no reason to ingest it (or any other route of administration). I guess it’s exactly because of it’s ubiquity that those of a conspiratorial mindset like it so much: it fits with the idea that there are…

I don't agree with trusting YouTube blindly. I trust my friends and colleagues that have cured their cancer better. Also note that chlorine dioxide is not sodium hypoclorite. It's like comparing salt (which also contains chlorine) with sugar.

A company named Neuraltus Pharmaceuticals created a drug named NP001. NP001, a pH-adjusted IV formulation of purified sodium chlorite, is a novel molecule that regulates inflammation in vitro and in vivo.

It was used in a phase II clinical trial for ALS, and a subset of patients did not have any progression during the 6 month trial [0]. Something highly improbable.

Unfortunately this was not confirmed in a following phase III trial.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396529/

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#128

Post by majkinetor »

wtetzner wrote: post #125
majkinetor wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the whole problem - everything that benefits your body, benefits cancer and vice-versa. Cancer forms all the time - body should handle it when functioning correctly (via immune system). NAD is essential for many functions, especially longevity as sirtuins require it for proper function. As far as I know only massive Vitamin C doses uniquely influence cancer in negative manner and get pretty much no effect on…

> Cancer forms all the time - body should handle it when functioning correctly (via immune system). Is this why some people think fasting can help? It gives the body a chance to clean up cancer cells, since you have more time in a catabolic state?

Don't know what anybody thinks, but there are multiple reasons, some of which are:

- No sugar input => low insulin (insulin promotes cancer)

- No nutrition for cancer cells => no folate etc.

- Metabolic slowdown due to starvation => means everything works slower including cancer

- Promotion of autophagy which consumes damaged organelles. This one is dubious as cancer cells can do autophagy themselves to stay alive, but I suppose that due to extensive mutations in cancer there is still a chance that normal cells do it more efficiently. In healthy parts of the body this can also lead to better immune system as damaged parts of it could be replaced in the process. On the other hand, good immunity needs various vitamins and minerals most of which can't be produced or stored.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#129

Post by eloff »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #99
aficiomaquinas wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very interesting book around the metabolic route for treating cancer. It's called "Starving cancer" by Jane McLelland. It talks about using over the counter drugs and supplements that have been studied for their metabolic blocking properties for cancer, as well as changing the diet to reduce as much as possible the nutrients that cancer craves the most according to their metabolic phenotype. Most of the ti…

If something is flagged by YouTube, it must be a really bad idea. Chlorine isn’t too bad in terms of toxicity, or it wouldn’t be added to drinking water and freely sold for all sorts of purposes. But there’s absolutely no reason to ingest it (or any other route of administration). I guess it’s exactly because of it’s ubiquity that those of a conspiratorial mindset like it so much: it fits with the idea that there are…

I don't think you should get health advice from banned YouTube videos.

In fact for the average layperson, figuring out what's good information and what's bad information on YouTube or the internet in general is probably beyond their abilities. I know my dear mother, who I love, can't do it. I like to think I can, but I'm the least qualified person to judge that. I'm also not average.

But I want to point out that one of the main treatment options for cancer is Chemo, which is basically injecting/ingesting toxic substances in the effort to weaken or kill the cancer before killing the host. So chlorine could well work in the vein, but I wouldn't want to use myself as test subject A in an unregulated pre-clinical trial.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#130

Post by agumonkey »

rsync wrote: post #69
tluyben2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is 'allowed'? Because I have been seeing 'low calories' (fruits/carrot juice etc) to nothing, even no water to make sure your digestive system does not trigger at all. I know no-one knows this for sure, but what is the current theory?

The idea would be to have zero caloric inputs. So water and coffee or tea (without milk, of course) would be fine. You're trying to avoid an insulin response and firing up the entire machinery of digestion. I think it's non-controversial to say that this starves the cancer cells. Perhaps less certainly we can also say that digestion demands a lot of resources and is an interrupt for a lot of other processes. When you…

Student said that sadly cancerous cells could last longer starving than healthy cells.
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