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An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

scottsantens.com

51–60 of 78 posts

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#51
post #12
post #2

People who have unemployment don't want to work because they'll loose unemployment :/ UBI seems like a good motivation and a fun experiment, looking forward to hopefully AY launching it in NYC.

> People who have unemployment don't want to work because they'll loose unemployment :/ Do you have any evidence for this? This is not claimed in the article as far as I can tell. I don't understand how anyone might make that calculation. I don't believe any state pays your full salary while you were on unemployment. And it's time limited.

Unemployment is only a minor part of this simply because it expires after a fixed duration. Housing and healthcare are much bigger factors. For many people, getting a job means losing their state funded healthcare and housing, but the income from the job is not enough to make up the difference.

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#52

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design. To the naive mind that can conceive of order only as the product of deliberate arrangement..." - Frederick Hayek Whether or not UBI is a good idea, a useful idea, or a moral idea is an interesting question (I generally think not, but it seems that position is losing the debate). Arguing for UBI…

I agree with your overall point, but I don't think it has unlimited applicability, and ever since Hayek first published on this topic, even liberal economists and philosophers have been critical that it fails to take into account the evolution of government as part of that anarchy of the market. Some suggest the tension between rational constructivism and spontaneous order is a false dichotomy in the real world.

It's worth noting that Hayek's conception of the economy as spontaneous order may run into something of a paradox[0], and in the view of some, the emergent and unconscious shaping of the market as we see it today can certainly conflict with other goals - in particular justice. I think most people are interested in at least asking about what can be done rather than sitting down at the command of "don't touch that, who knows what may happen!".

[0] Assuming that some intervention in the economy is permissible (i.e. anything but anarcho-capitalism), see section "When Would Hayek Pour The Cement?" here: https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_14_01_1_sandefur.pdf

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#53

It feels like the combination of Yang's presidential run and covid has broken the seal on the idea of UBI in the US. After having the experience of the government sending everyone direct payments, I think it's all but inevitable that we'll arrive at some level of formal UBI in the future. Given its sky high bipartisan popularity, it's hard to imagine how any non-UBI supporting politician will be able to compete with…

> Once people get a taste of UBI, how do we prevent voters and politicians from pushing it to unsustainable levels? It seems like the incentive on both sides will be to always push it higher and higher. You're forgetting the other side of the coin. The money comes from somewhere. Suppose you can fund a $12,000 UBI with a flat 25% tax rate. So now the breakeven point is at $48,000 in income. If you make more than that…

> you don't want to increase the UBI amount because it'll cost you more than it gets you

I think this is an oversimplification, because in practice, there will be a gradient of people around the inflection point who would be willing to take less in order to stop working, and that gradient will vary by the individual and by the job.

Additionally, I can also imagine politicians promising increases to the UBI without concomitant tax increases, funded by bonds or other kind of financial mechanisms for monetary injection whose long-term negative externalities would be easy to obfuscate from voters.

> Imagine a world with widespread automation and general or close-to-general AI without a UBI.

This is the key point. UBI is (in my current opinion) a necessary tool for smoothing an economic transition to a highly-automated level. However, I am concerned that it might induce other economic instabilities such as in tax rates, voluntary or involuntary unemployment, underemployment, inflation, borrowing, minimum wage, and so on -- these instabilities could then spread to social or political disruption that would undermine progress towards the transition that UBI was originally meant to support.

Since the size of the UBI would roughly correlate with the size of its influence economically/socially/politically, then as the UBI increases, the variance of these potential instabilities would also increase. As such, increases to the UBI should be carefully controlled, for example by gating them to developmental milestones. Of course, that opens a whole can of worms on who sets the milestones and so on, so I suppose it's really just shrugging and hand-wringing all the way down.

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#54
post #30

I have a simpler argument. The necessity of being fed, clothed, and housed, comes with a monthly price tag. The price of an annuity which pays for these things is the amount of debt that you are born with. That debt is completely undischargeable in bankruptcy, and is, in fact, the zero value to which you are set should you declare bankruptcy. The (inflation adjusted) price of that annuity varies wildly with the econo…

I can make that even simpler, parents should pay it up front. Eugenics! yay!

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#55
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People who have unemployment don't want to work because they'll loose unemployment hasn't this been debunked repeatedly? While yes, Im sure there are some people who do their hardest not to work to collect money, most people want to be out there working. I dont think youre correct per se, but I do think that part of the reason people linger on unemployment is because jobs that they are able to get dont pay nearly en…

>People who have unemployment don't want to work because they'll loose unemployment It's not all people do this or all people do that. It 100% happens that a non-trivial percentage of people on government benefits (unemployment, etc.) choose to stay on these benefits for their entire duration and only then pursue work opportunities.

I don't think you can say "its not this way or that way" and then follow up with "its 100% this".

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#56
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People who have unemployment don't want to work because they'll loose unemployment It's not all people do this or all people do that. It 100% happens that a non-trivial percentage of people on government benefits (unemployment, etc.) choose to stay on these benefits for their entire duration and only then pursue work opportunities.

I don't think you can say "its not this way or that way" and then follow up with "its 100% this".

I didn't say "it's 100% this".

I was trying to convey that is a fact that some people do in fact do this.

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#57
post #42

It won't help. Too many people will fall for schemes that just take all the UBI payments. They will apply the UBI plus their income to get the amount of mortgage they can afford, and then when (not if - bad things will happen, though how bad differs!) bad things happens they can't afford their payments. Or worse they will get involved in some sort of scam which takes all their UBI for some reward that never happens.

[deleted]

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#58
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Buying a house or car through debt is not a bad way to match your payment stream to the usable lifetime of the asset. Even if you can pay cash, unless you have a huge cushion this could make a lot of sense (taking your savings to 0 is worse than taking your savings to n months of cost of living, including the loan payments). I am lucky enough to be a cash buyer but I can still see the logic of using debt in this…

from an economic perspective, it doesn't make sense to buy a depreciating asset, like a car, with debt. a house, on the other hand, is generally considered a stable asset, so debt is appropriate there.

Sure it does, for the cash flow reason I mentioned. Consider the debt payments as an insurance premium against financial problems.

A municipality can take on debt for a capital expenditure on a bridge or something that might reasonably be dismantled or replaced around the time the bond is paid off, for the same reason.

I would not consider either case to be irresponsible or economically irrational in principle. Especially as humans have finite life spans.

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#59
post #28

Site is hugged for me, so I can't check to see if the author addresses this. I've been wondering - wouldn't UBI tend towards an inflationary spiral? I'm sympathetic to the goals of UBI. But without price controls, what would prevent rent/mortage/food/entertainment prices from just rising to absorb everybody's newfound income? College tuition has been going up exponentially since the introduction of federal student ai…

> wouldn't UBI tend towards an inflationary spiral?

A UBI higher than the economy can support would seem to drive inflation, especially if we're (literally or effectively) printing some of the money.

Whether that leads to a "spiral" depends on what we do in response. If our UBI is intent on delivering a certain real value, so we give an $X that we adjust regularly to account for observed or expected inflation, then we run risk of inflationary spiral. So let's not do that.

If our UBI is a fixed dollar value, increasing based only on targeted inflation, then inflation drives down the real value to something we can empirically support.

There are also proposals that tie income to a specific revenue stream (a carbon tax, or Alaska's permanent fund), which has its own dynamics but doesn't seem to risk inflationary spiral.

> But without price controls, what would prevent rent/mortage/food/entertainment prices from just rising to absorb everybody's newfound income?

Competition, of both direct and indirect substitutes; this is the same thing that prevents rent/mortgage/food/entertainment prices from rising to absorb everybody's oldfound income.

Considering rent and mortgage in particular, as they seem to be in more limited supply than the others, I want to note two things:

First, competition is not merely competition amongst like units. If there is a fixed number of rooms for rent in a city, more people that want rooms than rooms available, and everyone can pay more, we should expect prices to rise. But as prices rise, choosing to take on an additional roommate, keep living with your parents, or similar become more attractive. And of course, the number of rooms for rent is only approximately fixed, even in the short term. These will typically stop the price from rising the full amount.

Second, we aren't actually particularly limited on housing available; we're particularly limited on sufficiently desirable housing available. A huge portion of what makes housing desirable is that it is sufficiently close to sufficient sources of income. By reducing necessary income, we are actually directly increasing the supply of "sufficiently desirable" housing, even before anyone starts building.

> College tuition has been going up exponentially since the introduction of federal student aid.

There is a very different dynamic when we give people dollars that they can spend as they need, versus when we give people potential dollars they can only spend for a single purpose. If I save a dollar on tuition today, and I'm borrowing from a lender that will only lend to me for tuition, then I can't turn around and use that dollar for anything else that I need (or want). This means it's less important to me to save that dollar, so there's less pressure keeping the price down.

Re: An Engineering Argument for Basic Income

#60
post #42

It won't help. Too many people will fall for schemes that just take all the UBI payments. They will apply the UBI plus their income to get the amount of mortgage they can afford, and then when (not if - bad things will happen, though how bad differs!) bad things happens they can't afford their payments. Or worse they will get involved in some sort of scam which takes all their UBI for some reward that never happens.

Replace UBI with "income" and nothing about your statements change (apart from UBI/income switch and the "UBI plus their income" becomes "their income"). Do you also think that having income doesn't help?
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