I've been thinking and came to the conclusion that cancer might be a way of the body to get rid of excess sugar and maybe other toxins. Many cancers seem to respond well when ppl go keto for example
Why cancer cells waste so much energy
101–110 of 199 posts
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots It's not close to even 'relatively' being new. I was giving cancer talks that made mention of it back when I worked in cancer bio, just about 16 years ago now. I didn't come up with it, and it wasn't new then. I used it in tal…
Since you were a cancer researcher in a previous life, may I ask you a question I thought of commenting on another's comment? If cancer cells have high metabolic requirements, couldn't you attack them by: 1. lowering the caloric intake of the patient 2. Making the glucose the patient intakes mildly radioactive, say with a beta or an alpha emitter [1]. As the patient is strictly kept on a low caloric diet, the radioac…
The keto diet is actually recommended for certain types of cancer patients for this reason. While almost all human body cells can adjust to using ketones, most types of cancer cells cannot.
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a very interesting book around the metabolic route for treating cancer. It's called "Starving cancer" by Jane McLelland. It talks about using over the counter drugs and supplements that have been studied for their metabolic blocking properties for cancer, as well as changing the diet to reduce as much as possible the nutrients that cancer craves the most according to their metabolic phenotype. Most of the ti…
If something is flagged by YouTube, it must be a really bad idea. Chlorine isn’t too bad in terms of toxicity, or it wouldn’t be added to drinking water and freely sold for all sorts of purposes. But there’s absolutely no reason to ingest it (or any other route of administration). I guess it’s exactly because of it’s ubiquity that those of a conspiratorial mindset like it so much: it fits with the idea that there are…
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots It's not close to even 'relatively' being new. I was giving cancer talks that made mention of it back when I worked in cancer bio, just about 16 years ago now. I didn't come up with it, and it wasn't new then. I used it in tal…
Since you were a cancer researcher in a previous life, may I ask you a question I thought of commenting on another's comment? If cancer cells have high metabolic requirements, couldn't you attack them by: 1. lowering the caloric intake of the patient 2. Making the glucose the patient intakes mildly radioactive, say with a beta or an alpha emitter [1]. As the patient is strictly kept on a low caloric diet, the radioac…
1. We do attempt to attack cancers by reducing their available energy. That's why, at one point, a major field of research in cancer therapeutics was interfering with angiogenesis, because cancers will secrete messengers that help grow them dedicated (if crappy, low-quality) blood vessels. The issue with "starving" them more starkly is that they're very good at getting a share (e.g., forcing the body to supply them with blood vessels), so you're going to be hitting other labile tissues as fast or faster (skin, GI mucosa, blood and immune cells.)
Another way of targeting their rapid metabolism is pointing our therapy at cells with high replication rates. A number of our cancer therapeutics are aimed directly at cells that are currently replicating, which should selectively hit cancer cells (though again, it hits skin, GI mucosa, blood and immune cells, etc. because they're also high-turnover cells.)
We use methotrexate to interfere with DNA synthesis, thus reducing the rate of replication altogether (in cancer cells, as well as.... above).
The problem is, besides the dose-limiting toxicities of all of these things (because targeting metabolism hits all high-metabolism cells), is that cancer cells are really good at developing resistances. So, for instance, if you starve them of blood supply, they'll switch to anaerobic metabolism of glucose. If you starve them of glucose, well, you can't really - I'll discuss that below. If you give them methotrexate or other nasty drugs, they alter the cells' native drug-efflux pumps to target those drugs better and pump them right out of the cell. Cancer cells have a broken mechanism for protecting DNA - the result is really high rates of cell death among cancer cells, and also really rapid evolution.
In terms of starving cells of glucose: glucose is the least common denominator of cellular metabolism. It's the primary food source for the brain. Different cells have different receptors for absorbing it, with different levels of affinity. If you're running low, pretty much every cell in the body that can will kick up metabolic products to the liver to turn into glucose it can share with the bloodstream - because the best receptors in the bloodstream for picking up glucose belong to the brain. You'll starve, or poison, the brain long before you manage to starve out a cancer. (Yes, Ketone bodies are a thing, but that happens alongside your body mobilizing everything it can to feed the brain, not instead of.)
We also can't 'see' all the tumor. The way cancers actually develop is you have an abnormal cell A, which grows into a tiny nest. These are below detection in any practical clinical way, and we don't want to treat them because they're ridiculously common - your immune system wipes them up. If we tried to detect and treat them all, we'd kill everyone with side effects long before we prevented a fatal cancer.
Out of the bunches of these that develop and die, or develop and go permanently quiet, one gets active enough to start seeding tumor cells into the blood stream. Most of those cells will die, too, because blood is rough for cells not built to withstand it. Most of these are going to be undetectable in any way, and do nothing to people.
(Every time I say something is undetectable, I mean "Except for high precision laboratory experiments used to detect just such things").
Eventually a tiny pre-pre-tumor will start seeding cells into the blood stream that can survive the blood. These will get seeded effing everywhere. Most of these are permanently quiescent and do nothing, ever. They exist at the level of single cells - we can't see them. They don't do anything, metabolic activity very low, so we can't target them.
Once in a blue moon you get one seeded that is actually metabolically highly active. Or maybe it mutates into metabolic activity later. Most of those die.
Once in a blue moon, one of these will live enough to start replicating for real. Most of those get wiped out.
And once in a blue moon, they start replicating for real, and develop immune evasion, and you have something that becomes a cancer, maybe. Or it gets triggered by something external and becomes a cancer. There's a "seed and soil" element here. It'll often start seeding back into the blood stream.
By the time you have a detectable mass, your entire body has been seeded with these cells, most of them both un-image-able and un-selectively-treatable. Luckily, the overwhelming majority of these cells - lots of nines - won't do jack. Of the trillions that will seed your body, if we stimulate them just right, you might get a couple of new tumors, or none at all.
We know this because we learned that tumors benefit from circulating inflammatory markers early in modern oncology. When a surgeon took out a tumor, not infrequently, a patient would come in a year later with a new one or two that weren't previously detectable. We eventually learned that the inflammatory growth signals that come with surgical trauma can provoke an otherwise sleepy tumor cell into metabolic activity.
Which is a roundabout way of saying "cancers are more metabolically varied than the late, aggressive stage of the process we usually refer to as 'cancer' would suggest."
That being said, if you could inject something directly into the tumor (rather than the bloodstream would prioritize sending said poison pill glucose to the brain or liver) and take advantage of its metabolism, that would be great. We do kind of do that: we implant radioactive pellets directly, with the added benefit that we know it won't affect much tissue outside of the immediate area.
I hope my answer was actually useful in providing some biological context? I'm afraid I might have just word-vomited instead of being helpful.
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a very interesting book around the metabolic route for treating cancer. It's called "Starving cancer" by Jane McLelland. It talks about using over the counter drugs and supplements that have been studied for their metabolic blocking properties for cancer, as well as changing the diet to reduce as much as possible the nutrients that cancer craves the most according to their metabolic phenotype. Most of the ti…
If something is flagged by YouTube, it must be a really bad idea. Chlorine isn’t too bad in terms of toxicity, or it wouldn’t be added to drinking water and freely sold for all sorts of purposes. But there’s absolutely no reason to ingest it (or any other route of administration). I guess it’s exactly because of it’s ubiquity that those of a conspiratorial mindset like it so much: it fits with the idea that there are…
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#106I’m curious to see how fasting might influence cancer treatment. I know in other parts of the world it is seen as a legitimate treatment, while also potentially considered to be a hippy dippy homeopathic treatment. Anecdotally it seems you can starve certain cancers to death pretty easily by severely limiting your caloric intake. I sense a relationship between that and this study.
When I look at this image [0] it seems to me that muslim countries (which tend to fast once a year, I guess?) and poor countries have fewer cases of cancer. But at least with the poor countries I'm not sure if it's because people die of other reasons before they even could get cancer. [0] https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a0728f7c2418f32922558b...
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#107A ketogenic diet can also be ideally coupled with intermittent fasting[2] in order to engage/enhance autophagy within the body.
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#108Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#109Worth noting that unlike the cells of the human body, cancer cells are unable to utilize ketones as an energy source[0][1], hence the benefits of a ketogenic diet. A ketogenic diet can also be ideally coupled with intermittent fasting[2] in order to engage/enhance autophagy within the body. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375425/ [2] https://…
Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy
#110I.e. could you do a blood test to detect elevated levels of fermentation-based metabolism, indicating that it might be time to do a deeper cancer screen?