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Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

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Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#371

Post by pstack »

potatolicious wrote: post #364
jquery wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you gave me an extra $500-1000 a month and significant extra life expectancy I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. The freedom of being able to go wherever you want in a heartbeat in a car is highly overrated. Call a taxi for those times when it's actually urgent.

You miss my point - I don't have a car, nor do I want one, and I'm a complete proponent of urbanism and mass transit. But once-an-hour does not a transit system make. There's a false dichotomy here - the choices aren't car vs. shitty transit. We can very well have good transit (i.e., arterial mass transit with frequency of every 10 minutes or better). The problem with infrequent transit, particularly arterial routes,…

When I was just starting out, I lived on one side of town and my work was on the other side of town. My home town has extremely well-regarded public transit. Still, it took about 2.5hrs to get to work. Another 2.5 to get back. That turned a 9 hour day into a 14 hour day. And if a bus or train was just a little early, it could screw things up even further.

We have this idea that Americans don't use public transit, because they're infatuated with their cars. To a degree, we are. However, we also hate the work commute. The reason more don't use public transit is that it is not feasible for the average person to spend so much time sitting on a bus or train and making two or three transfers every day twice a day . . . on top of work. Especially if they have a family.

The idea of tighter communities where people work near their home is fantastic. Too bad we've already built our cities and roads and housing tracts, though. It's a thought for another bustling economy that is just starting to build out their infrastructure in the 21st century instead of the 19th and 20th century to do, though. We've already built our mess.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#372

Post by pstack »

dmm wrote: post #184
cdr wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine you were living anywhere desirable that you could pay $156/month in rent. People living in high cost of living areas can't reasonably live on $12K/year. Luckily, they mostly get paid a lot better $40K/year because they have to.

> People living in high cost of living areas Feudalism has been eliminated, you could always move. But you're absolutely right. People who choose to live in pricey areas don't get to enjoy extended vacations right out of college. It's your choice to make though. I visited San Jose a month ago. It's a gorgeous area and the culture is something really special, but it's expensive as hell. But that's fine if you think it…

I don't think people so much "choose to live in pricy areas" as that's where the jobs are. As a result, that's where the people are. As a result, that's where the most expensive living is. You can find a cheaper place to live, but it's likely cheaper, because there's less of a job market there.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#373

Post by Mz »

pdubroy wrote: post #320
camiller wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's a three bedroom, 2 1/2 bath with a two car garage. I've been in it since '93 Just after I turned 27. I'm the first owner. Original as built price ~$85,000. I'm not on the either coast and property prices were, and still are, a lot lower here. Last appraised value ~$122,000 (appraised 5 years ago), and similar sized homes in the same neighborhood are currently going for ~$135,000+. I'm in a nice neighborhoo…

I'm not sure that really proves your point. You've made about 2.8% annually over 13 years, not including your borrowing cost, agent fees, etc. On the other hand, the S&P 500 returned 8.25% annually between 1993-2006. Say you put 10% down ($8500) and spend $800/year total on taxes, repairs, etc. (probably low). If you'd invested in an index fund, you'd have made $42,000.

If you'd invested in an index fund, you'd have made $42,000.

And also likely have moved several times at an average cost of around $2000 per move, seen rent increases above what his current mortgage is and so on. The odds are poor that all other things would have remained equal. I owned a house at one time. I benefited by about $2000/year over the time I owned it. When I refinanced, I got my escrow back and had no mortgage payment for a month. Then my payments after that were lower. No landlord in the world is going to drop by your apartment and leave you with a nice hefty check, say "Don't bother to pay me rent this month and, oh, next month your rent is going down. Cheerio!"

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#374

Post by bluedanieru »

larrywright wrote: post #70
zdw wrote: post #3

One result of this is that businesses chuck human redundancy out the window. Often there's only one person who can do a business critical task, and as they can't really be gone from work for that long, the business gets by. From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for business process.

There are a lot of companies that do force people to take vacations for precisely this reason. I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

Not only is that practiced, it's the law.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#375

Post by pstack »

joezydeco wrote: post #10

I'm wondering how much of it is because people neglect to negotiate their vacation time when changing jobs. Most American workplaces start you out with 2 weeks and then usually add a week or so after so many years of seniority. When you change jobs, how many of you ask for that same amount of vacation time at the new company? Or do you just accept that you're new and don't want to push things by asking for more at th…

Of course, that depends entirely on the company/industry. I don't even know that "most" American workplaces start you out with any vacation. In professional fields, they mostly do, I'm sure. My mom has worked at the same place for around twenty years and she has zero vacation. The only way I would be able to get her to come for a visit where I am is if I subsidized the time (ie, paid the money she would otherwise be missing out on, on top of the expense of the travel) -- because either way, she still has bills to pay.

I find that I take a lot of what I have in my daily business life for granted and am often surprised when I'm struck by the reality of how few benefits positions in other places in this country give people.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#376

Post by pstack »

Silhouette wrote: post #88

The thing I find most interesting about this discussion is that we have not yet seen anyone from the US proudly claiming that by working harder they are more productive than the rest of us. I have seen similar conversations several times on various on-line forums in the past, and there was always a defensive/proud mindset from a significant group, even as those of us outside the US wondered if they realised how much…

I don't necessarily think that lack of vacation makes you more productive (though I am still not convinced that taking ten days away from the office somehow makes you more productive for the other 255). I do, however, think that most employers will notice when you're gone. Especially for long periods of time. They may not necessarily notice that you're the guy who never is out of the office, but sometimes it's better not to be noticed at all than to be noticed as the guy who always triggers "OUT OF THE OFFICE UNTIL" autoreplies.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#377

Post by pstack »

speleding wrote: post #273

Allow me to air a dissenting opinion, since everyone here seems to make fun of those poor US workaholics. I think the low number of vacation days is just a side effect of Americans not having such a strict compartmentalization between "work" and "life". I worked on both sides of the Atlantic and although I settled in Europe now I actually like the US work ethic, the low number of vacation days notwithstanding. For ma…

Thank you. I am my work and I live to work and I'm tired of people treating me like some sort of pariah, because of it. The only thing I will spend more time doing in my life besides working is sleeping and that thing I do and how well I do it greatly defines me. I am not just the man who exists between the few hours after work and before bed and if others are, then I'm sorry for them. (I understand that isn't everyone - many people do love what they do and care about the work they make with their lives, but still enjoy the lengthy break now and then).

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#378

Post by pstack »

AndyJPartridge wrote: post #23

I think this old story is vey relevant here. I have employees that take a lower salary than others, but have up to 7 weeks holiday a year. I'm happy with that. One employee that has 7 weeks holiday has only had 1 day sick in the 6 years I've employed him. -- Sharpen the Saw -- Once upon a time a very strong woodcutter ask for a job in a timber merchant, and he got it. The paid was really good and so were the work con…

That kind of sounds like a metaphor for more training rather than vacation?

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#379

Post by troels »

marshray wrote: post #125
troels wrote: post #68

So, in the field of software engineering where competition for employees is tough, is it really still common to give only 2 or 3 weeks vacation? Would it be considered outrageous to ask for 5 or 6 weeks of vacation when interviewing for a position, in Silicon Valley?

I don't know about SV in particular, but I've worked a several tech companies over the years. Yes, usually HR can make exceptions. But you need a good reason, like "at my current job I have 3 weeks of leave accrued, I want to not lose that if I come work for you". But having an engineer who accrues vacation at a different rate than other employees hired under the same circumstances would be quite exceptional. It woul…

Yes, I can see how an employer would have trouble justifying go give one employee more time off. It's a lot easier to hide differences in salary.

That said, if employers are serious about attracting talent, perhaps it wasn't a bad idea to offer more time off for everybody. I know that coming from a country where 6 weeks time off is the minimum, it would be a serious disincentive for me to want to work in the states.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#380

Post by pstack »

henrikschroder wrote: post #229
MatthewB wrote: post #63

My employer gives the usual 2 weeks vacation for the first year of employment. Then, every year after that, you get an extra week up to 4 weeks paid vacation per year. Also, my employer is very vacation friendly in terms of requesting time off. However, the biggest problem I have is actually taking the time off! I feel like I will miss too much work if I take a long vacation so I just take off a day or two here and t…

What do you mean "miss too much work" ? Seriously, what's the worst that could happen if you're not there for a week or two?

His comment seems fairly self explanatory, to me. If you have five things to do every day and you do five things every day, you keep up. If you have five things to do every day and you don't do them for ten days, you have 55 things to do on the eleventh day.
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