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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#181

Post by randompwd »

thunderrabbit wrote: post #73
topcat31 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a real question FYI. I don't know what that means. Googling "Making sure /usr/local/bin is in my $PATH" leads me here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19202007/making-sure-usr... So I fire up the terminal and write echo $PATH and then go back to SO to see that it looks like it's all set up correctly. But why do I need to go to SO? Why do I need to fire up the terminal? It just feels too damn hard and too…

Learning a new language is hard, whether it's a spoken language or, in this case, the incantations on command line. Your comment to which I'm replying now shows that you do have the ability to learn this new language. You've correctly and successfully used the term "SO" to refer to a popular resource on programming. You have successfully "fired up the terminal." You've even used the terminal to echo $PATH. You're mak…

> You've correctly and successfully used the term "SO" to refer to a popular resource on programming. You have successfully "fired up the terminal." You've even used the terminal to echo $PATH. You're making great progress

He's been a user of HN since 2010...

It seems he likes the idea of programming more than the act of it. It's similar to one being enrapt with the idea of being an accountant but in reality, just wanting TurboTax to do everything and not learning anything. But i get to play pretend that I'm an accountant.

And in terms of (free) knowledge availability on the internet for any one profession, there is nothing that comes anywhere close to programming.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#182

Post by m1gu3l »

user-the-name wrote: post #104
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

How? It seems like you and the author are at the same energy level of complaining without putting up real ideas. How would you “fix” programming then?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#183

Post by TeMPOraL »

0-_-0 wrote: post #169
jorams wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the layer below it? It's certainly not GUIs, which are a significantly more complex layer of abstraction.

It's definitely GUIs, which is much easier to use for beginners (we're talking about beginners here, not people who have been using command lines exclusively for the last 20 years)

And why would anyone want that?

Would you want your kitchen to be limited to plastic spoons and silicone bowls, because that's easy for a 2 year old to grasp? Pots and stoves and knives, after all, are too complicated, and God forbid the knife is metal and the stove is powered.

You can't do useful things and cater for beginners at the same time, because that implies nothing can ever improve beyond what a beginner can grasp. The job of a beginner is to become proficient. They can achieve that through learning, not through expecting rewards just for showing up.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#184

Post by catlifeonmars »

ccmcarey wrote: post #76
catlifeonmars wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all about reducing the barrier to entry. Many people find the command line daunting. Why not reduce these barriers to entry? Why require someone to understand $path to start coding in JavaScript?

> Many people find the command line daunting Then they need to get over that if they want to learn to code or use scratch.

> Then they need to get over that if they want to learn to code or use scratch.

This is the right attitude to have as an aspiring programmer, but exactly the wrong attitude for someone who creates the tooling or documentation for helping aspiring programmers learn.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#185

Post by m1gu3l »

fisensee wrote: post #129
user-the-name wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

While I understand and recognize the frustration with programming today, I wonder if comments like these have any sort of factual basis to them. What exactly is over-complicated for no useful reason? And what are the ways to fix this? I haven't looked at every "coding for non-coders" app, but all I've seen fail in offering the same functionality as coding in itself does. How would the ideal way to programm look like…

Remember that for all the time spent trying to figure out these philosophical conundrums in our trade tech debt is still piling up and someone else is out there writing actual code/working... these are nice things to think about but don’t get hung up on them. Lots of this is subjective stuff that has no answer and the code isn’t going to write itself (not yet).

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#186

Post by 0-_-0 »

kichimi wrote: post #178
0-_-0 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely GUIs, which is much easier to use for beginners (we're talking about beginners here, not people who have been using command lines exclusively for the last 20 years)

In one statement you just revealed your age and experience level. The general trend in programming has been moving TOWARDS command line interfaces, not away from it. Mac OS didn't even have a built in command line until 2001. Microsoft Windows in the last few years has had its command line functionality enhanced, to the point that the GUI only Server versions of Windows have been stripped back, and now there are CLI…

>In one statement you just revealed your age and experience level.

What are you assuming about my experience level?

I thought it was perfectly clear that the argument isn't "there should be no command line" but that knowledge of the command like should't be necessary for beginners. Just like e.g. knowing assebler shouldn't be (and isn't) neccessary for programming. That's why I put the parenthesized statement above, specifically so you understand what the argument is. Or you could just read what I responded to.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#187

Post by GuB-42 »

kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

I think the author is not talking about career programming. If that's your job, you have no excuses not learning command lines and all the other stuff.

This, I think, is more intended for people who are not really programmers, but would like to write a bit of logic, and find themselves with tools intended for professionals.

Because I am an experienced programmer now, I may be biased but I have a feeling we raised the barrier to entry for programming. The author mentions Excel, that still exists and us used all over the world by non-programmers to write terrible macros. But I am also thinking about Visual Basic, a lot of stuff by Borland (thinking about Delphi). DOS even shipped with Basic IDE.

As a general rule, I consider all "don't be lazy" arguments wrong. Machines are meant to work for us, not the other way around. The only ones who shouldn't be lazy are those who write the tools, so that users can be if they want to.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#188

Post by kichimi »

0-_-0 wrote: post #186
kichimi wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In one statement you just revealed your age and experience level. The general trend in programming has been moving TOWARDS command line interfaces, not away from it. Mac OS didn't even have a built in command line until 2001. Microsoft Windows in the last few years has had its command line functionality enhanced, to the point that the GUI only Server versions of Windows have been stripped back, and now there are CLI…

>In one statement you just revealed your age and experience level. What are you assuming about my experience level? I thought it was perfectly clear that the argument isn't "there should be no command line" but that knowledge of the command like should't be necessary for beginners. Just like e.g. knowing assebler shouldn't be (and isn't) neccessary for programming. That's why I put the parenthesized statement above,…

I disagree completely, and I'm starting to see now that you do not see the command line as programming, which is a fundamental flaw in how you're approaching your argument.

The command line _IS_ a programming language. If you do not want to learn it then you do not want to learn programming.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#189

Post by 0-_-0 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #183
0-_-0 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely GUIs, which is much easier to use for beginners (we're talking about beginners here, not people who have been using command lines exclusively for the last 20 years)

And why would anyone want that? Would you want your kitchen to be limited to plastic spoons and silicone bowls, because that's easy for a 2 year old to grasp? Pots and stoves and knives, after all, are too complicated, and God forbid the knife is metal and the stove is powered. You can't do useful things and cater for beginners at the same time, because that implies nothing can ever improve beyond what a beginner can…

No, I'm saying that your kitchen should contain plastic spoons and silicone bowls too, because that's easy for a 2 year old to grasp.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#190

Post by TeMPOraL »

slifin wrote: post #159
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

I make no opinion on the author but something like this: https://twitter.com/ibdknox/status/1328797793138266113?s=20 Does make me think programming can be radically different and maybe a lot easier

Doubt it. While it looks cool, what it does is hide a lot of complexity in its standard library and presents only the surface layer - all bolted down to (what seems to be) an overcomplicated NLP processor (but what more likely is just someone playing with Illustrator) that you have to hand-hold to verify it generates sensible code.

What I'd like to see is how it handles any kind of more complicated tasks - e.g. one where you need to build two or three layers of abstraction. Or one where you build domain objects that are used by other tasks. Or even one that showcases error handling.

You can get something similar, minus the fancy NLP processor, in Unreal Engine, via its Blueprints feature. Suffice it to say, there's a reason people end up learning and switching to C++ the moment their problem starts to involve any kind of complex logic.

Note: I'm not against improvements in programming experience, and more visual and interactive paradigms. But I've also played with enough dataflow languages to fully internalize that there is irreducible complexity in programming (that comes from it being an art of micromanaging possible states), and it's painfully hard to work with it in a flowchart form.

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