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Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

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Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#31
Anyone care to list the "things they wish were different" ?

Trying to remember how to build a package some months back I ran into all the old headaches. Debian packaging is ancient, and the packages don't provide all the information and functionality other package management formats do. Trying to contribute a package (much less write one) is a pain. The structure of the files and how to build them seems over-complicated, and at the same time not very useful. The tools largely rely on a bunch of weird magic variables to fix common problems. Modern conventions could be added as tool shortcuts, like installing a package once in a container and then cleaning up all the crap you don't need before saving the layer. Navigating the website requires a high degree of tribal knowledge that no other distribution does (compare looking for packages across Debian releases to looking for packages across Alpine releases, as a neophyte). Why do source packages have to be renamed when nobody else does this?

Is there a sort of "wish list" or "suggestions box" for Debian? This is something I wish I had at work, but not sure how to manage it.

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#32
post #25

They're considering dropping i386, which is interesting. Does anyone know more about that?

Time64 is the death of i386 - the time_t structure needs to be expanded to 64-bit to handle dates beyond 2038, but that's an ABI break, and the primary reason anyone still runs 32-bit binaries is for closed-source games which won't come along for an ABI upgrade. You can either do the ABI break and lose most existing users when the main set of apps stop working, or have the main set of apps stop working anyway in 2038…

You could switch it to unsigned 32-bit time_t, and most things would still work right up to 2106.

With any luck, civilization will collapse by 2038 and it won't matter anyway. But, struggling back up from collapse on scavenged 32-bit microcontrollers powered by scavenged solar panels, we won't need the extra burden of post-y2038. Switch to unsigned 32-bit time_t for the sake of the (surviving) grandkids.

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#33

Debian is my favorite distro for web dev, but, MIPS is also near and dear to my heart since I learned its hardware architecture in college. I view MIPS as the simplest possible instruction set that satisfies most of the modern scalability constraints (RISC, short pipeline, etc). It will likely be replaced by something like ARM which also incorporates instruction compression for basically free (since memory latency ma…

> It will likely be replaced by something like ARM

Er... the spiritual successor to MIPS (as "that nice little instruction set that academics love") is definitely RISC-V, not ARM, and a Debian port for riscv64 is in progress.

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#34

Debian is my favorite distro for web dev, but, MIPS is also near and dear to my heart since I learned its hardware architecture in college. I view MIPS as the simplest possible instruction set that satisfies most of the modern scalability constraints (RISC, short pipeline, etc). It will likely be replaced by something like ARM which also incorporates instruction compression for basically free (since memory latency ma…

MIPS has no SMP memory model.

One could be cribbed from POWER or ARM, or even x86, but it is a paste-up.

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it may be because the software packages for i386 are closed-source, but don't quote me on that.

It's because in 2021, i386 processors are obsolescent. The last non-amd64 processor that ran x86 is the Pentium 4E from 2004, a 17-year-old machine. The packages will still be available as long as there's a maintainer, but it's not worth packaging a full debian release for such a small and shrinking portion of the userbase.

But i386 will still run on 64 bit hardware. A place I was working recently was insisting on sticking to 32 bit linux while they migrated off Solaris, mostly for stupid reasons on code that wasn't too hard to port, but just because the hardware is no longer compatible doesn't mean the software is, especially for any proprietary software that will never be upgraded.

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#36

Debian is an amazing project. I love how it's so fundamental but doesn't call attention or hype to itself. It's used by millions but doesn't try to be sexy or glamorous. Even the website is minimal.

Hmm, popcon says only 199127 submitters, I wonder how many Debian systems there actually are.

https://popcon.debian.org/

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#37

Debian is my favorite distro for web dev, but, MIPS is also near and dear to my heart since I learned its hardware architecture in college. I view MIPS as the simplest possible instruction set that satisfies most of the modern scalability constraints (RISC, short pipeline, etc). It will likely be replaced by something like ARM which also incorporates instruction compression for basically free (since memory latency ma…

Debian can always use more porters, especially for MIPS as that family of ports isn't doing great. The debian-mips mailing list should be able to help you get involved and there are similar lists and IRC channels for other ports, as well as the #debian-ports IRC channel for all the unofficial ports.

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#38
post #10

They're considering dropping i386, which is interesting. Does anyone know more about that?

I hope it means dropping the i386 distro, not dropping i386 multiarch which is still needed like for older 32-bit games and such. I don't see much value in i386 distro these days.

Debian keeps IBM Thinkpad T41 alive. :)

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#39

I've been using Debian or Debian derived distros for quite a while, everything from straight up Debian on various servers, Armbian for my SBC's, to my secondary PC running Kubuntu and later KDE Neon. For me as a more casual Linux user, it's great as it essentially "just works" and I don't have to invest a great deal of time to fiddle with auxiliary things. However, if I could get one wish, it was to ditch the codenam…

If it helps, the list of Debian codenames is here:

https://www.debian.org/releases/

Re: Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

#40
post #10

They're considering dropping i386, which is interesting. Does anyone know more about that?

I hope it means dropping the i386 distro, not dropping i386 multiarch which is still needed like for older 32-bit games and such. I don't see much value in i386 distro these days.

386 distro and i386 multiarch are pretty much one and the same for Debian, we don't have any "cut-down" ports without a kernel, bootloaders etc.
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