Live data from Hacker News

Intel is dying and we can’t save it

sithsiri.medium.com

231–240 of 268 posts

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#231

I see Intel not being dominant, having to take a back seat, shrinking a bit. But dying?? Nup, I'm not seeing this at all. I mean AMD for years survived in a situation much worse then Intel currently is. Intel's productions nodes might be behind TSMC's but they are still quite valuable, not all chips need 5nm processes. Heck we could say most chips don't need it. Intel is still innovating, just because they currently…

But not being hyperbolic doesn't drive clicks. Sort of like all of the headlines about Musk no longer being the richest man because the stock prices fell. Whoopee friggin boohoo. He still has more money than >99% of all humans on the planet. In sports it's fun to say that 2nd place is just the first loser, but that's all in jest and friendly banter. When making things like this overly dramatic, it serves nobody excep…

> He still has more money than >99% of all humans on the planet.

Understatement much? You could also say Elon has more money than 50% of humans on the planet.

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#232
post #84

Let's all just come to a common agreement: there's no planet on which the US military allows Intel to die. Period. End of story. Having a US based company with fabrication facilities on US soil is vital to national security and will be for the entirety of my lifetime and likely my grandchildren's lifetime (if I ever have any). For all the bluster of the investors wanting to chop Intel up: they will find a swift and f…

I'd agree with you, but this has already happened when IBM sold its Fab [1] to Global-Foundries which is owned by Mubadala Investment Company from the U.A.E IBM's Fab was on the DoD trusted foundry list [2] Slide 13, Intel's is not. There's an article that already rang this alarm around national-security when IBM divested itself of its Fab. [3] 1. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2837426/ibms-chip-busi... 2. htt…

Intel does have government contracts today[1][2], however, so some aspects of that situation may have changed with time.

1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-intel-manufacturing/intel...

2. https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-and-chip-makers-including...

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider that at 14nm+++++, Intel still manages to outpace AMD with its 7nm CPUs and latest architecture. AMD competes mainly on price, which is not a great position to be in. Intel's profit margins are massively better. Have you been living under a rock for this past year? This is not true. AMD is beating Intel in performance in every market segment right now.

I am talking about the latest Intel architecture which admittedly has not shipped on the Desktop yet, so benchmarks are not independently verified. If you look at the mobile chips that did ship on 10nm, Intel is ahead as well.

Intel's "latest" architecture is basically the same Skylake from 2015 except they just pulled a Prescott with it and simply cranked up the power and heat until it reaches a desired x% extra performance over last gen.

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#234
I’m not convinced by that Intel is doomed, especially by allegations that they can no longer design a performant chip, and especially that AMD has them finished.

Not that they’re entirely without merit; Intel faces challenges that, left resolved, will spell the end of the company. Just like any other firm that ignores problems.

Most of these arguments, especially the ones of “what are they going to do about AMD?” seem short-sighted. Intel has been here plenty of times before, facing down strong AMD competition only to come back and crush them a few product cycles later. Jim Keller can only come around so often. No, AMD’s issue is that they can never hold onto that lead through enough product cycles to really make a lasting dent in market share. It’s especially unfortunate for AMD right now, as supply constraints are choking what is its best performing product in years. Can’t really claw back a ton of market share when no one can get your chips.

It’s asked by the tech tubers and other observers why Intel continues to ship old Skylake variants. Process issues with 10nm are a factor here. But I suspect there’s a big one that no one’s really discussing.

And that’s the fallout from Spectre and Meltdown.

Keep in mind that the exploits in these flaws were found in products that were 10 years back at the time they were discovered. Each new chip isn’t a ground up design, but iterations on designs that stretch back years. I suspect, that the reason we haven’t seen truly new designs in over several product cycles is that Intel is having to redo large parts of their architecture that would have otherwise been carried forward in a normal setting. Gamers and enthusiasts may not have seen much of an impact to their apps as a result of these; none of the microcode updates results in big FPS drops in any games that I am aware of. But there were notable enterprise workloads that did. It’s often overlooked that the consumer marketplace is just one part of the larger IT ecosystem, so a redesign there is a must.

The timing of this is horrible of course, as it comes right when their new process is failing. So double-whammy there. Fortunately, or unfortunately, worldwide lack of fab capacity I think is preventing their rivals from exploiting this as much as they could. As for RISC, I think that is an entirely different threat, and to me, far more threatening and plausible. Intel saw this and tried to get into mobile chips, But I feel x86 is intrinsically at a disadvantage there.

I’m interested to see where Intel will be at once they have a new design ready to go. We’ve been here before. Pentium 4 ended up scaling far better than the Athlon XP did, and Core 2 and Nehalem utterly crushed AMD’s offerings when they were launched after a few years of AMD on top. There’s good reason to believe they can do so again, and a big reason why we haven’t seen an attempt is because they’re continuing to undo their mistakes of the past. We’ll have to see if they can.

My two cents.

(Disclaimer: Not a fanboy, I’m writing this on my AMD 3700X. =P )

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea here must be that somehow Apple or AMD have figured out the magic sauce to making faster processors, while Intel of all companies is oblivious to it and won't be able to catch up. In reality, there is nothing that Apple or AMD are doing that Intel could not also do, isn't already doing, or isn't in a hurry to also do. Consider that at 14nm+++++, Intel still manages to outpace AMD with its 7nm CPUs and latest…

> Consider that at 14nm+++++, Intel still manages to outpace AMD with its 7nm CPUs and latest architecture. AMD competes mainly on price, which is not a great position to be in. Intel's profit margins are massively better. Have you been living under a rock for this past year? This is not true. AMD is beating Intel in performance in every market segment right now.

Zen3 ipc is higher than ice lake , and profit margin will be higher too , amd just increased prices and still sell out, 10nmsuperfin perfectly comparable to tsmc 7nm

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#236
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not being hyperbolic doesn't drive clicks. Sort of like all of the headlines about Musk no longer being the richest man because the stock prices fell. Whoopee friggin boohoo. He still has more money than >99% of all humans on the planet. In sports it's fun to say that 2nd place is just the first loser, but that's all in jest and friendly banter. When making things like this overly dramatic, it serves nobody excep…

> He still has more money than >99% of all humans on the planet. Understatement much? You could also say Elon has more money than 50% of humans on the planet.

I don't understand your point. 99% > 50%. My original statement is more exclusive. Want to elaborate on what your point is?

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#237

It always blows me away to see so much brand loyalty about cpus. I really couldn't care less what architecture my chips are, or who fabricates them. All I care about is price and performance. I write application software, the underlying hardware is pretty irrelevant to me and most of my peers too. I think that as we lost national sources of pride and community structures at a local level, people transferred their loy…

I haven't really seen any brand loyalty here so far.

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#238
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, Intel probably has enough people left who remember Itanium and are scared of trying big new innovation for an honestly legitimate reason.

Lately I've started to wonder if Itanium wasn't a good idea badly executed. I wonder if you went back in time and invested more in compilers and ecosystem if it could have succeeded? VLIW could really reduce complexity by dumping a lot of instruction re-ordering stuff and eliminating the need for tons of baroque vector instructions for specific purposes. The biggest thing Intel didn't do with Itanium was release affo…

I'm not sure that pushing the complexity to the compiler makes as much sense.

One good side of x86 style instruction sets is that there is a lot you can do in the cpu to optimize existing programs more. While some really advanced compiler optimizations may make some use of the internal details of the implementation to choose what sequence to output, these details are not part of the ISA, and thus you can change them without breaking backwards compatibility. Changing them could slow down certain code optimized with those details in mind, but the code will still function. And I'm not even talking just about things like out of order execution. Some ISA's leak enough details that just moving from multi-cycle in-order execution to pipelined execution was awkward.

This ability of the implementation to abstract away from the ISA is very handy. And some RISC processors that exposed implementation details like branch-delay slots ended up learning this lesson the hard way. Now the Itanium ISA does largely avoid leaking the implementation details like number of scalar execution units or similar, but it's design does make certain kinds of potential chip-side optimizations more complicated.

In the Itanium ISA the compiler can specify groups of instructions that can run in parallel, specify speculative and advanced loads, and set up loop pipelining. But this is still more limited than what x86 cores can do behind the scenes. For an Itanium style design, adding new types of optimizations generally requires new instructions and teaching the compilers how to use them, since many potential optimizations could only be added to the chip if you add back the very circuitry that you were trying to remove by placing the burden on the compiler.

Even some of the types of optimizations Itanium compilers can do that mimic optimizations x86 processors do behind the scenes can result in needing to write additional code, reducing the effectiveness of the instruction cache. This is not surprising. The benefits of static scheduling are that you pre-compute things that are possible to pre-compute like which instructions can run in parallel, and where you can speculate etc. And thus you don't need to compute that stuff on-die, and don't need to compute it each and every time you run a code fragment. But obviously that information still needs to make it to the CPU, so you are trading that runtime computation for additional instruction storage cost. (I won't deny that the result could still end up more I-cache efficient than x86 is, because x86 is not by any means the most efficient instruction encoding, especially since some rarely used anymore opcodes hog some prime encoding real-estate.)

Basically I'm not sold on static scheduling for high performance but general purpose CPUs, and am especially not sold on the sort of peudo-static scheduling used by Itanium where you are scheduling for instructions with unknown latency, that can differ from model to model. The complete static scheduling where you must target the exact CPU you will run on, and thus know all the timings (like the Mill promised) feels better to me. (But I'm not entirely sure about install type specialization like they mention.)

But I'm also no expert on CPU design, a hobbyist at best.

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea here must be that somehow Apple or AMD have figured out the magic sauce to making faster processors, while Intel of all companies is oblivious to it and won't be able to catch up. In reality, there is nothing that Apple or AMD are doing that Intel could not also do, isn't already doing, or isn't in a hurry to also do. Consider that at 14nm+++++, Intel still manages to outpace AMD with its 7nm CPUs and latest…

>In reality, there is nothing that Apple or AMD are doing that Intel could not also do, isn't already doing, or isn't in a hurry to also do. On the contrary, Intel has refused to do any architectural innovation for nearly 20 years. They are capable, but overly conservative. They should have been in a hurry 10 years ago. It's well documented that they weren't and were resented for it. AMD came up with a winning strate…

The question is, are they in a hurry to catch up? What is the market that AMD is actually taking over with its multi-chip packages, and at what cost?

Just because AMD may be winning in Cinebench doesn't mean it's winning in the business side.

Multi-chip packages have downsides that become obvious in certain enterprise workloads, so the question becomes: Is it worth giving up on the monolithic approach, or adding multi-chip products, in order to completely dominate the market, even when that is not more profitable?

Clearly, the answer for Intel must be "no", otherwise they would being doing it.

Re: Intel is dying and we can’t save it

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything else is ruled by backwards compatibility That's one of the biggest reasons to choose them. If Intel's "x86" stops being x86 , they'll lose one of their biggest competitive advantages. See the first comment here, for example: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/vme-broken-on-amd-ryzen/

This question has raged since the 90's. I worked on the Itanium (Madison and McKinley), and the VLIW architecture was brilliant. This was during the time of the Power4 and the DEC ALPHA, two non-x86 competing architectures that were dominating the "Workstation" market (remember that term?). It looked like the server world was going to have three architectural options (Sun was dying, and Motorola's 68000 line wasn't u…

Thanks for your comment
Post reply on HN