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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. I completely agree. I certainly would accept more pay. But I wouldn't switch jobs just to get it . There are several reasons, most importantly that interesting jobs in my niche are scarce. So my employer has a resource that is perhaps scarcer than myself!. Second (and this is the part where it becomes self-fulfilling), because there are no super high salaries, I'…

Great response - I very much agree that from the employee's point of view you are always trading off a number of factors and they are by far not all about money. My main contention really was with the assertion that you don't see why you should get rich - as if it were about what is deserved whereas of course it is a market where the correct price is the one people are willing to pay. I myself trade off a number of f…

I'm not saying it would be wrong to be rich or that devs should be rich if they work for companies that make a lot of money per employee. But that's a pretty "valley centric" view that creating software means creating infinitely scalable money machine and each developer always creates a value much larger than what they are paid.

For most us devs, especially in europe where a larger fraction of us developers work, I imagine, in traditional industry rather than "in software", there just isn't a situation where we create this massive value. We create more than we earn, sure, but it's not exacly Netflix money. The company I work for, like almost all companies, have a huge number of employees and a profit margin that has looked pretty similar for a lifetime.

What's unfair is perhaps that there are instances of such companies, where the developers really could and should be rich because they write software that make billions. If such devs were paid better, then I could also be paid better, because I'm paid in competition with them. More likely though they'd be paid more and the jobs that aren't in that category would be done elsewhere. So in a sense, I'm also a tiny bit happy that the pay structures aren't as widely distributed as they are in some places.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

> If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. You seem to be completely unaware of how wildly the cost of education has increased even over just the past decade, especially for 4-year institutions.

How? FIU is 7$k per year, that's not prohibitively expensive. I don't understand how people get out of college with $400,000 in student loans.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

> I got here by taking no risk at all. > This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. In some sense this is true, but lets not get carried away. The American Startupism is all about the flash, big growth, big impact, big IPO. In EU you have companies slowly grinding a hard problem for 20 years that also…

Once I was told: if you line up 100 Germans and 100 Americans which are on vacation and tell them: the first one to reach the top of that mountain gets a million dollar. 100 Americans run straight up the mountain, 97 die of cold weather or from falling down rocks. But one reaches the top at first.

The Germans go back to their hotels, plan the trip, shop the needed equipment and set off according to their planned route and timetables. 99 will get to the top, but no one will get the prize - because the American already has been there... sums it up.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

I think it's just a story that software engineers like to tell themselves to feel better about earning more than almost everybody else. Meanwhile, there are plenty other "force multipliers", who are paid a pittance. Even a cleaner is a "force multiplier" - they enable people not dying from diseases coming from dirt - that's much more in terms of multiplying output than we do (without cleaners, everybody dies and ther…

No. Can the cleaners job be automated ? Yes Can a good/creative developer be automated ? No

The skill you bring to the table is worth a lot more than their skill. Although everyone in the world is important, some are more important than the other.

Its the Google that changes the direction of the world not the general guys.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#855
post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just have to point out that the pandemic was not a tech crisis. If you want a point of reference, think of the dotcom bust. That was a tech crisis. White collar workers, especially STEM ones have largely coasted through this pandemic.

I’m not following your point; we might even agree. My point was: despite less legal protection, American SWEs still enjoy a lot of security even during a pandemic (which isn’t a tech crisis but still dramatically impacted many tech companies). Because I make like 80% more than what I would make in Europe, I also am able to save and invest (6 months expenses saved up in a savings account). I also give a good portion t…

My point was that we haven't had a job crisis in the software field, for a while. That would be a true test. I have no idea when it will happen but it's reasonable to assume that nothing keeps going up forever.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#856
post #61

What’s the incentive for companies to pay European devs more?

Ability to attract and retain talent better than their peers? Alternatively: What's the incentive for firms in the US to pay high wages?

Managers in US software companies base their seniority on experience in software engineering. Up-valuing software engineers also up-values their own position.

Most large employers of engineers in Europe are rather old industrial companies. Management generally do not have software engineering backgrounds.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#857

This is a pretty simple topic if you have a good understanding of what enabled developers to pull in large comps, and what kinds of employers pay such comps. I comment on comp threads on HN frequently and don't want to rehash my entire advice, but I can illustrate one example that can be generalized to Europe and America. Consider two hypothetical employers: Employer 1: - We want to hire only the best. - We expect pe…

Except salaries in London are not at all competitive with US especially if you factor in cost of living, unless you get into Fintech.

What do you mean "except?". That's exactly what I am referring to - high expectations employers who compete for too talent.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does sound like a pretty stress-free way to live! That said, living in Europe doesn't always equal good living conditions and stability - it depends on the particular country you're in as well. My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev. My living expenses eat up around half of that. If a quick search turns up that in USA the median salary for a dev is around 100k$ per year ( https://money.usne…

I considered moving to France for a few years (from the US), but I was shocked to find it would be a 40% pay cut, even after factoring in all of the healthcare and other expenses we Americans enjoy. And the cost of living is a fair bit higher in France to boot. Now that companies are cozying up to remote work, I think I’ll jist do more frequent 3 month trips and work in the evenings when I run out of vacation days. T…

watch out, if you spend more time in France than in any other country (not just 183 days per year), then you will be considered a fiscal resident of France and therefore taxable on income. in addition, you can't really work remotely and avoid employment taxes, pension contributions, etc... this is only tenable if you spend a minor portion of the time in the country (like any other country, really... states need their taxes obviously).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. You seem to be completely unaware of how wildly the cost of education has increased even over just the past decade, especially for 4-year institutions.

How? FIU is 7$k per year, that's not prohibitively expensive. I don't understand how people get out of college with $400,000 in student loans.

400K is the folks doing things like med school. I doubt the average is anywhere near that. People getting loans for more than just tuition can easily hit 100K, though. IIRC the university I went to, which is a state institution, lists the average cost at about $28K a year including room, board, tuition, books, etc. So if someone wants to pay for the whole thing on loans and not work any kind of part time job, they're going to end up with a mountain of debt.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#860
post #838

I don't think it's cheaper to live in Europe than in US. The reasons for lower salaries in my opinion are: - most developer jobs are in "real" businesses, which see IT as a cost center - compared to US, there is a vanishingly small number of technically innovative IT-first companies, so there's little competition for talented professionals - taxation is progressive and harsher in general due to being the primary sour…

> due to being the primary source of govt income in most (all?) European countries, and increasing gross salary kinda stops making sense at some point It's the same in the US > It would be great, if these issues were addressed, and there are well-known ways to do that. How ? moving to bonuses or equity is a way to defer taxes but at the end you would pay the same

I rather meant government taking measures to stimulate IT business and venture capital, like it's done in certain Eastern European countries, for instance - mostly by tax exemptions and concessions.

Regarding bonuses - here in Spain they are subject to personal income tax...so yeah, it's only good for employers.

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