Live data from Hacker News

Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

marksaroufim.substack.com

61–70 of 227 posts

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#61
post #32

There is about to be a 'great pivot' in ML. There has been a rabid frenzy of throwing money at anything that has ML in it. Soon investors and CEOs will realize that ML is effective in narrow ways and that not everything needs ML. They will also realize that 1 ML team + ML as a service (Azure ML, Sagemaker, Google AI platform) is cheaper and works more reliably. The services will keep improving and an underpaid medioc…

Mostly disagree.

> CEOs will realize that ML is effective in narrow ways and that not everything needs ML.

Any stable business isn't unjustifiably syncing costs here. I project FY21 rise an AI-funded efforts in large businesses.

> They will also realize that 1 ML team + ML as a service

Yes/no. This is has more platform implications vs actual ML.

> ML teams might lose jobs

Assumes ML Jobs only do some form of R&D. Data is a utility, and advanced analytics is valuable. Stable ML Jobs dont just work on deep learning.

> I expect it to (already happening)...

partially agree. already happening. But cost centers are only taking on what was standardized yesterday. Tomorrow still requires advanced analytics capabilities.

> In such a system

moot point. This is the system.

I see a pivot in focused efforts. More optimism in an early AI commodity vs stagnation. We're moving from research to integration. Further areas to improve AI in applications (with continuous feedback training) and many domains of advanced analytics.

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#63
post #20
post #5

I see a lot of parallels between ML/DL and cryptocurrency research.

Can u elaborate on that?

I can't speak for them, but I took it this way: there are certain industries that are simply incentivized to produce more of their own industry.

The criticisms of the financial industry where they are not really creating anything of value other than optimizing more value out of existing money.

Adtech industry where a whole generation of technical researchers spent time figuring out how to optimize clicks.

Cryptoeconomy and blockchain where large amounts of money are created out of perceived value and gargantuan efforts are made to build, not solutions to real-world problems (yes I know there are some), but ways to increase the shared, total value of the technology or individual cryptocurrency.

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#64
post #56

I still feel like much of AI is a plot to dumb down the modern economy. We want our business people to be just as effective as our quants; we want nothing to require real intellectual labor. The idea that you traditionally have these programmers who spout mumbo-jumo all day, cost a lot of money, and seem to always be planning stuff behind your back is threatening, and all the more so because you are utterly dependent…

Trying to use ML to get rid of programmers will just replace them with ML experts who also have to be programmers to implement the models and munge all the data. These people will in turn have to be paid more than the original programmers were.

Won't they be much fewer in number, though?

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#65
Here's something to put ML and related tech to work: to quantify the influence of shilling, astroturfing, brigading, gatekeeping, and all kinds of political campaigning on the 'net, the devastating consequences of which are only now seen by the general public.

Though I have to say that I've personally seen ML invading conferences not related to ML per se, with over half of submissions employing ML techniques to random problems in the primary field which however were in itself clearly of no interest to the presenter and only a vehicle for their graduation even more than usual. So I'm admitting to see MLer as mostly in it for advancing their careers; glad to be convinced otherwise.

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#66
A number of industrial domains have largely benefitted from this tool and outsiders can even set up their own virtual r&d lab at almost no upfront investment these days. As usual, a tool is (still...) only a tool, and it (still, just...) needs domain knowledge to work in full and produce noticeable ROI?

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#67
Sounds like the field has accelerated itself into an intellectual dead end.

Not enough to know how to walk . You need to know where you want to go, and figure out the existence of any path in the first place or you might end up squaring the circle.

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#68
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's 3 off the top of my head, but there's more especially when you get into less flashy territory. Translation (Google translate, DeepL) Automatically generated product descriptions, sometimes also edited by humans (Alibaba) Image Tagging (Facebook photos)

Okay, I should have worded my comment more carefully. These applications seem to firmly fall into the "I'm willing to compromise on quality if I don't have to pay a living person a wage" niche, so they're value-destroying, not value-creating. Are there examples of value-creating applications for ML? (From a business point of view; obviously the "shitty translations but at no cost" proposition creates value for the av…

Your qualification of value destroying/value-creating makes little sense to me. If I need a news article or some other webpage translated I can do it thanks to Google Translate. If Google Translate was not here, I would simply not get it translated and lose the information, there is no way I would contact a translation firm for that kind of stuff. To me it is firmly value creating.

At any rate here are way more than 3 other uses of DL today off the top of my head:

* Autocompletion (be it in search engines toolbars or in Gmail/Word/...)

* Superresolution GAN, the most interesting example to me being NVIDIA DLSS, you render a game at ~720p or less and then upscale it to the target resolution of 1080p or 4k, allowing to get quality that the machine would not have been able to support at the target resolution directly.

* Image recognition/tagging: Most of this is used in the security domain, but there is also a lot of stuff around inventory management, safety etc.

* Semantic search

* Protein folding (AlphaFold)

* In astrophysics: detection of supernovaes, FRBs and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm not aware of

* Self-driving cars: Even assuming self-driving technology does not evolve anymore from now on, the current state of the art is still a selling point.

* Predictive maintenance: Used for plane engines and other things

Re: Machine Learning: The Great Stagnation

#70

I still feel like much of AI is a plot to dumb down the modern economy. We want our business people to be just as effective as our quants; we want nothing to require real intellectual labor. The idea that you traditionally have these programmers who spout mumbo-jumo all day, cost a lot of money, and seem to always be planning stuff behind your back is threatening, and all the more so because you are utterly dependent…

This seems fair to me. The executive view of ML is "can you do me a magic?" And as this article's "Graduate Student Descent" bit makes clear, the worker response is often to semi-randomly perturb code, show some graphs, and say, "Is this a magic?"

For me, most software development is about finding something boring and laborious. We get a computer to do the work so humans can level up and work on something requiring actual thought. That requires getting a deep understanding of the actual work.

Some of that definitely happens in well-run ML projects. But there's a bunch of Silver Bullet Syndrome stuff going on, where ML's shiny results and magazine articles lead to inflated expectations and inflated claims of success. A fellow nerd says, "I did an algorithm!" Some turns that into an impressive presentation with claims of X% gains in the Key Business Metric, hallowed be its name. In reality, it's more plus or minus X% when you account for externalities, natural variation, and actor adaptation. But that's ok, because by the time anybody finds out, attention is elsewhere.

That's not to really blame ML for that. For a period years ago, I kept getting asked, "Can we use a wiki for that?" I would start an explanation of what it actually takes to make a wiki work (hint: it's not the software). Their eyes would glaze over in short order, because they realized that it would take actual work. So many people want the silver bullet, the magic pill. Especially people in the managerial caste, as the reigning dogma there is that management is a universal skill. Details are for the little people.

Post reply on HN