Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#781

Post by Winterflow3r » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

tiborsaas wrote: post #693

sajithdilshan wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

I'm in the EU, took more risks than most people I know, step out my comfort zone also multiple times. What most people miss is not the willingness, but the safety net. Results? Unimpressive, fails over fails. I know value the steady job I have and I keep tearing myself for not opting for this sooner. I don't know if I would be already burnt out if I haven't tried, but timing wasn't great, that's for sure.

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you tried when you stepped out of your comfort zone?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#782

Post by oblio » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

throwawayzRUU6f wrote: post #651

eloisant wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it, and I would completely agree if the salary gap was the same for managers, HR, etc. So the question is: why are managers, HR, etc. paid so much more than SWE in Europe? They bring less value to the company.

Pretty much every professionals' pay is proportionately lower. Doctors are paid around a 1/3 of what doctors get in the US Nurses around half Lawyers vary, but quick googling suggests it's around half to third Finance, insurance and real estate pays waaaay less Store managers at Walmart get about twice as much store managers at Lidl Europe The skew in upper management pay is even higher and on and on...

Well, the US GNI is also higher than that of every European country minus the microstates, Norway and Switzerland.

Partly because even though productivity is comparable, Americans just work more (longer hours, fewer and shorter holidays), partly because the system is just more efficient: single market, just 1 language, great centralized soft power that opens many doors.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#783

Post by oblio » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:42 PM UTC

aprdm wrote: post #387

aantix wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have worked 20 years in the same job Very different. I cannot imagine staying anymore more than two years - aren't you bored?

How do you learn if you don't have to maintain what you wrote after two years...? Also, creating connections and really understanding a company/business is really fun IMO.

He probably doesn't want that kind of deep learning (not in the AI sense), he wants to have fun.

Having fun is one of the most powerful forces in human history. Not always for good.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#784

Post by llampx » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

burntoutfire wrote: post #607

netrus wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the economic tradeoffs in buying a house are pretty country specific. For example, renters in Germany have very strong legal protection. It is very difficult for your landlord to kick you out, or raise the rent dramatically. I could certainly afford to buy the flat I live in, but I prefer to have the money invested in the stock market instead, and have someone to call (who also pays for) any problems. I also…

Interestingly, in Poland, it's the renter who is responsible for taking care of all problems, except structural ones and perhaps stuff like mold. Everything else is on the renter, and he is expected to return the house in "no worse" condition on the lease's end - meaning, repairing all the white goods in the house if they break etc.

Germany takes care of that problem by not supplying a kitchen or any white goods at all when renting an apartment. Of course, exceptions apply and some landlords do offer an EBK (fitted kitchen) when renting.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#785

Post by llampx » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #624

fulafel wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What isn't? Volatile market value, risks of breakdowns and fires and previously undiscovered structural flaws, fires, natural distasters, etc. It's putting a lot of your eggs in one basket, which in investment terms is same as foregoing diversification, ie taking on a lot of risk for no corresponding increase in returns. Depending on jurisdiction, risk of unfair treatment in a divorce. High transaction costs when cha…

How volatile is the housing market in Germany? And there are solutions to the other problems - getting the house properly surveyed before buying, insurance for fires.

The long-term trend in Germany has been a movement from rural to urban areas, and immigration from outside of Germany to German cities. So if you had an apartment or house in a city you are sitting pretty, not so much if you had the same in a small town or village.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#786

Post by ABeeSea » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:46 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #534

throwaway894345 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was laid off recently due to the pandemic. Because I work in tech, it took me two weeks to find a new job and it ended up being a promotion and a 20% raise. I would make 40% less in Europe, even in a big city, and unless I lived in a small European town my cost of living would be quite a lot higher. Even factoring healthcare (contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper m…

> contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper middle class) ... until you get a really expensive chronic disease. And then it fails miserably. I know upper middle class parents whose kids got a disease which need ~$5000/month meds for a few years (and nontrivial infusion center costs on top). It worked ok for some, many had been informed that the insurance company decided…

Not defending the US healthcare system, but I’ve never heard of an insurance plan without an out of pocket maximum. For example, my plan has a 2k maximum for individuals and 4K for married couples. Combined with a health savings account (allowed to be funded pre-tax from both the employer and employee), I’ve generally put $1-2k a year in that during my 20s when I rarely needed medical expenses. I still haven’t had a year where I’ve spent more than I’ve saved to the point I could cover multiple years of out of pocket maximums just from that account.

And since it’s a “savings account” I can invest the tax-free savings into the stock market with index funds. I’ve actually had a decent amount of growth in that account just from stock market gains.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#787

Post by ajknzhol » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #453

kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) I managed to save about €10k/year on a €42k/year salary (and I was being woefully underpaid even by European standards for what I do, but that's a different story, I should have earned at least 60k, but ah well) which I used to fund my business. Maybe y…

I work in big automotive supplier company in Germany and earn around €72k/year. Save upto ~€24k/year. And you can live pretty much live comfortably even with almost 33% savings.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#788

Post by llampx » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #631

hogFeast wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the other countries you have mentioned but German residential real estate has very high levels of institutional investment and the legacy of rent control (famously, Berlin...although that changed a few years ago). So you have very high wealth inequality, average German net financial wealth is equal to Greece and Germany has a significant number of billionaires, but you also have a system that funda…

What happened with rent control in Berlin? Rent control sounds like a good idea in theory but in practice it seems the opposite, creating two tiers of renters.

They introduced the Mietendeckel law last year, which solidified the two tier system for renters. If you had a good rent contract in a central location, you were sitting pretty and could probably count on a decrease in rent. If you had done the responsible thing and rented in a further away location, no such luck. If you are looking for an apartment now, supply has been dramatically reduced. Great for the haves, not so much for the have nots.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#789

Post by pikzel » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:51 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I don't get why I would get a smaller cut of the profit just because I save less for my children than Americans do. I should be paid what is reasonable for the work I do, not how much money I spent on education.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#790

Post by oblio » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 12:54 PM UTC

pietrovismara wrote: post #691

tananaev wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when the government doesn't have enough money to pay for retirement anymore? The system works well when you have growing workforce and productivity. It doesn't work with growing number of retirees and shrinking active workforce.

What happens if society collapses? If a giant asteroid hits earth? If we find out aliens and they are ostile?

Well, we know what happens, already. You build a bunker, stock up on guns and food, build a bunker in a remote part of your country :-p

I always find this kind of prepping unrealistic, the best thing you can do is a solid social group. If society collapses, even the best prepared loner will be dinner for the nearest somewhat organized group of people :-)