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German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

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Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#151

Post by spurgu »

ath92 wrote: post #141
inglor_cz wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Increase taxes on alcohol Illegal production of homebrewn alcohol is a thing and has been for centuries. Raising taxes at will does not mean that everyone will, unhappily, continue to buy expensive alcohol in the store. There is a limit after which people will start to produce their own moonshine, which is less safe than whatever you buy legally. Or start drinking various chemicals that resemble alcohol. (Window cl…

And yet Scandinavian countries have had great success by raising the price and limiting the availability of store-bought alcohol. I think this is similar to some UX patterns we see in software: most people will go with the default option because it is easier. Raising the amount of effort needed for something means fewer people will end up doing it.

Not sure what you mean by "success"? In Finland at least so many people (especially from the south) regularly (pre-COVID at least) take the ferry to Estonia to buy alcohol in bulk because of the insanely high alcohol taxes. If that option didn't exist I'd expect moonshine (and/or illegal exports) to become much more common.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#152

Post by cfcosta »

brazzy wrote: post #125
that_guy_iain wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience talking to the people whose job it is to provide support and services to those who abuse substances. Most experts in substance abuse normally say Alcohol is the worst of all the substances. With many stating, it causes more havoc in families on scale than heroin. More people die because of Alcohol, not just from drinking it but from drink drivers, drunken fights, etc. The general violence caused by…

But note that all those statement are about the amount of harm in an environment where alcohol is legal, cheaply available in every supermarket, widely advertized, and its consumption socially accepted, even expected . Can you really say in good conscience that other drugs wouldn't be worse if they became equally ubiquitous?

Yes. If they were as widely available, you would be able to know what you're buying, how much and hopefully how to apply it as safely as possible. Having drugs being illegal make them stronger, as they have to be transported in secret, and create derivative drugs to fill lower price ranges for long term addicts, such as crack and oxy.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#153

Post by hummusman »

brazzy wrote: post #125
that_guy_iain wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience talking to the people whose job it is to provide support and services to those who abuse substances. Most experts in substance abuse normally say Alcohol is the worst of all the substances. With many stating, it causes more havoc in families on scale than heroin. More people die because of Alcohol, not just from drinking it but from drink drivers, drunken fights, etc. The general violence caused by…

But note that all those statement are about the amount of harm in an environment where alcohol is legal, cheaply available in every supermarket, widely advertized, and its consumption socially accepted, even expected . Can you really say in good conscience that other drugs wouldn't be worse if they became equally ubiquitous?

I think the crux here is that decriminalising/legalising the use of drugs such as heroin would not make them more widespread and ubiquitous. Despite being illegal they are still so very easy to access in almost all countries, and most people are well aware of the high risks associated with them. Legalising them would bring users/abusers into a more public sphere where it is far easier to access harm reduction and the state can provide it without legal complications

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#154

Post by dewey »

cm2187 wrote: post #118

I get how these market places are used for digital goods (malware, credit cards), but I don’t understand how people can trade physical goods on those. If they have to exchange products, they must either meet in person or use the mail, either is trackable by the authorities. I see how the seller can protect himself for local transactions. He could leave the goods hidden somewhere and tell the buyer where to go. But th…

Usually the buyers don't really get in trouble, either because the amounts are too small or the priorities are different. They are much more interested in the sellers and operators of the platform.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#155

Post by wizzwizz4 »

88840-8855 wrote: post #120
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the same logic. Weed isn't a contagious disease responsible for probably the majority of last year's deaths, and if you overdose on heroin, your neighbours' grandparents won't also die of a heroin overdose. There are plenty of problems with drugs, but that ain't one. Now, banning smoking in public, that I can get behind. I don't want none of that nasty second-hand smoke.

Well, directly there are no negative implications, but indirectly very many. I do not want to finance health insurance for drug addicts, for example. And yes, I agree, also smoking should be banned and the health insurance limited. Sorry, but not sorry for having a conservative stand. You _must_ accept my opinion instead of downvoting... I thought that Pluralism of Opinions is a valued concept in democracies...

> I do not want to finance health insurance for drug addicts

Rehabilitation of drug addicts is, iirc, cheaper than the policing and economic (inc. opportunity) costs they tend to otherwise cause. The health insurance system can't natively deal with this kind of thing, but a decent healthcare system supporting drug addicts would cost you less.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#156

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

ath92 wrote: post #141
inglor_cz wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Increase taxes on alcohol Illegal production of homebrewn alcohol is a thing and has been for centuries. Raising taxes at will does not mean that everyone will, unhappily, continue to buy expensive alcohol in the store. There is a limit after which people will start to produce their own moonshine, which is less safe than whatever you buy legally. Or start drinking various chemicals that resemble alcohol. (Window cl…

And yet Scandinavian countries have had great success by raising the price and limiting the availability of store-bought alcohol. I think this is similar to some UX patterns we see in software: most people will go with the default option because it is easier. Raising the amount of effort needed for something means fewer people will end up doing it.

Finland and Sweden aren't exactly sober places. Finland also has one of the highest suicides in Europe and alcohol abuse sure plays into this. Sweden isn't a role-model either by criminalizing abuse and making alcohol expensive. It does nothing but make it a "prestige object".

Nordic countries: https://www.statista.com/statistics/693505/per-capita-consum...

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#157

Post by Mauricebranagh »

bluescrn wrote: post #147
transpostmeta wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My solution: Increase taxes on all alcoholic beverages. Make pharmacies able to sell 20% by volume alcohol mixed with water that is drinkable in non-branded, medical-looking bottles. Addicts with little money can buy that and mix it with fruit juice or whatever, and everyone else buys the expensive real stuff.

Alcohol is big business, though. Forcing pricess too high would be the end of most pubs/bars and many restaurants. And we're losing many of them already due to Covid. If taxes were really high, I suspect that home brewing would be become far more popular, too.

The great experiment aka prohibition in the USA shows how that worked out.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#158

Post by nerbert »

brazzy wrote: post #125
that_guy_iain wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience talking to the people whose job it is to provide support and services to those who abuse substances. Most experts in substance abuse normally say Alcohol is the worst of all the substances. With many stating, it causes more havoc in families on scale than heroin. More people die because of Alcohol, not just from drinking it but from drink drivers, drunken fights, etc. The general violence caused by…

But note that all those statement are about the amount of harm in an environment where alcohol is legal, cheaply available in every supermarket, widely advertized, and its consumption socially accepted, even expected . Can you really say in good conscience that other drugs wouldn't be worse if they became equally ubiquitous?

Rat park comes to mind. The issues are not the drugs, but our well being in society.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#159

Post by spurgu »

nisa wrote: post #138
inglor_cz wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Increase taxes on alcohol Illegal production of homebrewn alcohol is a thing and has been for centuries. Raising taxes at will does not mean that everyone will, unhappily, continue to buy expensive alcohol in the store. There is a limit after which people will start to produce their own moonshine, which is less safe than whatever you buy legally. Or start drinking various chemicals that resemble alcohol. (Window cl…

You can get a beer case in germany for as low as 5€ - 10€ for something mildly decent - that's 24 bottles of 0.5L beer. As much as I enjoy my beer every other day it's crazy. Double that and pay for rehab/hospital costs with that money.

That would be 35-40€ (cheapest brands) in Finland. This is why booze runs to Estonia (much lower taxes) are so common.

Re: German police take down 'world's largest darknet marketplace'

#160

Post by dunefox »

nisa wrote: post #138
inglor_cz wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Increase taxes on alcohol Illegal production of homebrewn alcohol is a thing and has been for centuries. Raising taxes at will does not mean that everyone will, unhappily, continue to buy expensive alcohol in the store. There is a limit after which people will start to produce their own moonshine, which is less safe than whatever you buy legally. Or start drinking various chemicals that resemble alcohol. (Window cl…

You can get a beer case in germany for as low as 5€ - 10€ for something mildly decent - that's 24 bottles of 0.5L beer. As much as I enjoy my beer every other day it's crazy. Double that and pay for rehab/hospital costs with that money.

That would definitely not be doable in bavaria.
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