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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#741

Post by TheChadderChad »

jtwaleson wrote: post #410
dnpp123 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker". Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you…

I know its kind of informal but do you have any current remote internship opportunities?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#742

Post by brianmcc »

kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

>> Because you can't save

Sorry that's nonsense. Tech remains in Europe generally very well paid compared to national averages, albeit just not stratospherically so like some (not even all) US areas/firms.

I'm sure there are of course still relatively poorly paid tech roles, but tech Europe-wide simply cannot be characterised as too ill paid to build savings!

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#743

Post by st1ck »

ronyfadel wrote: post #589

Start contracting remotely for US based companies. For them, you’re cheap(-er) labor, for yourself, you’ll make more than what you used to make in Europe.

Seriously. There are many US-based remote positions e.g. in Who is hiring threads, but most of them are still limited to US residents.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#744

Post by alkonaut »

nathias wrote: post #538
alkonaut wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say deserve - but since switching jobs is a chore, I’d want to be compensated for it. I don’t think it’s a job that should necessarily make me very rich though. Taking risk should, but just creating value that someone else can produce? There is talent scarcity but not that much scarcity. Other people would do my job at my pay (which I guess ties into the topic!) With the highest salaries perhaps 20-40% highe…

I think there is a comparable amount of value created between you and someone in USA, its just that in Europe managers capture more % of the profit. Its not an issue of scarcity (that makes sens only for the whole playing ground) but of distribution after the scarcity is already priced in.

In some industries, developers create almost infinite value-per-person. A company can make a product with 100 people and sell it to amillion customers.

In other industries, engineers (software or not) just make products and products are built and sold with "normal" margins and limited growth opportuntites. A healthy company can make a 10% profit every year for a century. Scaling up means having more people because you need more sales, more manufacturing and so on.

In some more pure tech industries like SaaS, Games etc, the profit margins can be much higher. I'd be upset too if I was at a company that made $1M profit per employee and I didn't have a cut. That doesn't apply to most software jobs (at least not here) though.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#745

Post by yulaow »

offby37years wrote: post #120
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

Based on this premise any teacher should be payed an incredible amount of money considering they are literally creating the bases to allow professionals like us to generate our "force multipliers".

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#746

Post by hashmush »

Uberphallus wrote: post #504
fy20 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm almost certainly not going to see the same grocery store chains That's not really true. It's fair to say that a lot of supermarket chains have operations only in a single country, but there are quite a few multi-country brands as well which aren't uncommon. A few examples: Carrefour, Auchen, Lidl, Audi, Tesco, (Euro/Inter)Spar, Iceland, Rewe - and that doesn't include subsidiaries of the same company (e.g. ICA/…

> It's fair to say that a lot of supermarket chains have operations only in a single country, but there are quite a few multi-country brands as well which aren't uncommon. Actually it's fair to say most of the business is done by local chains, and Europe-wide operations are rather uncommon. From your mentions, I'd only consider to be "Europe-wide" Carrefour and Spar. Carrefour is everywhere (though their market strat…

To reinforce your point, from a Swedish perspective. I've never seen or heard of Carrefour before. We used to have Spar[1] but those got replaced by other chains.

Lidl started showing up maybe 15 years ago and is everywhere by now. I don't think any town/city with more than 20k people is missing a Lidl.

Tesco I've only seen in the UK.

[1]: Spara means "to save" in Swedish, so I've always thought that Spar was from here. TIL it's not.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#747

Post by jpat »

physicsguy wrote: post #579
suscitate wrote: post #167

While I think that lower salaries are a result of multiple factors, one interesting data point is that governments actively disincentivize high salaries for workers through taxation, and low salary requirements for visas. For example, the "high" salary tax income bracket starts at £50k in the UK [1] and at €54k in Germany [2]. More or less, these rates are similar across western Europe (except for Switzerland). In th…

Yeah, there's also serious disadvantages to taking > £100k salary in the UK because your marginal tax rate hits 60% as the personal allowance is withdrawn.

True, but it does dip back down to the marginal rate of 40% at £120k. https://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/marginal_tax_rates_ex... shows this with a clear graph.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#748

Post by Aeolun »

ano88888 wrote: post #300
KronisLV wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does sound like a pretty stress-free way to live! That said, living in Europe doesn't always equal good living conditions and stability - it depends on the particular country you're in as well. My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev. My living expenses eat up around half of that. If a quick search turns up that in USA the median salary for a dev is around 100k$ per year ( https://money.usne…

That seems really underpaid. I live in south east asia and my net pay is above 4000 Euro (excluding year end bonus which could be 6 to 12 months salary) . There is no social benefits though.

Why would your year end bonus be equal to your yearly salary? That just seems out of whack.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#749

Post by globular-toast »

arp242 wrote: post #735
globular-toast wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I've managed to save £12k a year just by keeping my lifestyle at a minimum. The big one to avoid is paying for a car, which is actually realistic in Europe.

I hardly lived a "minimal" lifestyle, I just did what I wanted, including paying for my holiday with my girlfriend (who earned much less) and selling my house with a loss to move country (which also wasn't cheap in itself). I could have saved more if I wanted. I also don't have a car – I don't even have a driving license – and that's indeed quite a large cost-saver. I also don't really have too expensive hobbies or n…

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't like I was scrimping and saving every penny. My parents used to buy the very cheapest food (mostly "Tesco Value"), second hand clothes, one week of holiday per year etc. I've always had good food, never had second hand clothes, go on multiple weeks of holiday per year. I just didn't succumb to lifestyle inflation early on. I could have spent all my money on all manner of things but I just didn't want/need to because I was happy with what I had.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#750

Post by alkonaut »

KronisLV wrote: post #231
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

That does sound like a pretty stress-free way to live! That said, living in Europe doesn't always equal good living conditions and stability - it depends on the particular country you're in as well. My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev. My living expenses eat up around half of that. If a quick search turns up that in USA the median salary for a dev is around 100k$ per year ( https://money.usne…

The ferries to Stockholm is right around the corner. There are 13 software jobs to the dozen, you don't need any paperwork to work there, and €4k per month would be considered "bad" there. If I was in Latvia and spoke english I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even if I couldn't physically move, I'd definitely try to get a remote job from there even if it meant a slighly lower pay than an on-site one.

Obviously, you'd have much higher living costs and the weather would be slighty worse, but lets face it no one lives in Latvia for the weather either!

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