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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#711

Post by joelbluminator »

qwytw wrote: post #657
sverhagen wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from the Netherlands, I recognize this shame. High positions in the workforce are often shamed, talked about as "easy money", as if it's inherently corrupt, people don't acknowledge their risks and responsibilities. Whether that warrants those high salaries or not, I'm not commenting on that debate. Public functions or private organizations in which the government invests, must cap salaries at what the prime mi…

And yet Netherlands has the highest wealth inequality in the world ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq... ) so one could interpret this cap and the cultural attitude you described as pretty much a scam by the capital owning class to maximize their returns.

Well taxes on the rich are not low in NL, so it's not a scam. The current asset bubble just distorted everything in a bad way, and finding new taxes on wealth is hard since wealth flees very easily. But I agree wealth inequality should be talked about more than income inequality.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#712

Post by flr03 »

wnnzl wrote: post #703

I’m SWE for 10 years. I started with very low salary, and I’m about to start a new job in next month and be at the very top (7k euro net, monthly). TBH I do not need that kind of money. I do it for new challenges that come with it. I live with my partner, we both had our higher education for free, we plan no children, and we both have 80k euro in our saving accounts. Why would I need to earn more? I would prefer to p…

Same situation as you here, 10y xp, free education, girlfriend SWE as well... We have a household income around 190k euro before tax, no kids. The only reason why we could wish to earn more is to afford a nice flat in London, it makes you wonder who can really afford it.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#713

Post by joelbluminator »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #688
qwytw wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Netherlands has the highest wealth inequality in the world ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq... ) so one could interpret this cap and the cultural attitude you described as pretty much a scam by the capital owning class to maximize their returns.

Yep. I also never understood why Europeans focus so much on income inequality ( "OMG, programmers and managers get paid too much, tax them more!" ) and not wealth inequality where old, established families can keep rolling their wealth from generation to generation nearly tax-free and see their assets apreciate substantially while the working class bares the brunt of taxation and are getting squeezed every year more…

> It's a real mystery to me why people aren't up in arms about wealth inequality

You have quite a few Dutch political parties talking about this, PVDA, The green party, the socialist party etc. The socialist party (SP) actually suggests giving all employees shares in the companies they work for. But these left wing parties, while not unpopular, have the whole ultra capitalist system working agaisnt them. What can the SP do if their legislation simply causes business and the rich move to another company? It's an impossible battle. You need international cooperation for it to work, and there is no such cooperation.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#714

Post by pjc50 »

codeisawesome wrote: post #202
ricardobeat wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as my experience goes, managers make about the same, or less, as an engineer at a similar experience level. They may end up at a higher compensation level if far enough in the career ladder, but I don't think it's significant in the bigger picture. The average CEO earnings in the Netherlands, including bonuses, is only 5x-6x the average engineer salary.

That’s mind blowing

Most of the really rich CEOs such as Bezos are making more as owners than as CEOs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#715

Post by ACS_Solver »

piva00 wrote: post #574
cjblomqvist wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that? Sure, not the top elite, but there's still a significant gap between upper middle class and lower in for example Sweden, which I believe is one of the more equal countries. FAANG level salaries would significantly widen that gap.

Agree with this take, being in the upper 10% of salaries in Sweden gave me perspective on how wide of a gap there is between myself, some friends working other office jobs (accountants, architects) and some in more blue collar work. I don't feel like I deserve a much higher salary than what I have for this society, I'll be honest and say that sometimes I feel ashamed of earning so much more than some friends given th…

Oh yes, familiar. I'm in Sweden, I definitely make good money by Swedish standards, and also have excellent benefits through work. This is, frankly, not proportionate to the value I provide to society. I work on some nice software that certainly adds convenience to the lives of many people in multiple countries. But it's by no means critical, and I generate less value for society than anyone working in healthcare, than competent teachers, and than many other workers who make significantly less.

Plus my job is safer and more comfortable than many others. I sit in my office, I think and I type. Unlike the emergency services, I don't risk my life or health, nor does anyone's life depend on my work. Unlike construction workers, assembly line operators and many others, my office environment is free of hazards.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#716

Post by benhurmarcel »

dnpp123 wrote: post #342
drdaeman wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My net salary is just over 1000€ That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offense meant - it is a good country, just isn't one famous for high incomes), easily makes at least 2k (and I say "at least" - that's awfully underpaid). > that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year That's a bit…

> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

You can play with the numbers here [1] for France. You're right that beginners can be around 30k€ before taxes (although that's a little low), which gives less than 2000€/month after taxes.

[1] https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#717

Post by globular-toast »

arp242 wrote: post #453
kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) I managed to save about €10k/year on a €42k/year salary (and I was being woefully underpaid even by European standards for what I do, but that's a different story, I should have earned at least 60k, but ah well) which I used to fund my business. Maybe y…

Yeah. I've managed to save £12k a year just by keeping my lifestyle at a minimum. The big one to avoid is paying for a car, which is actually realistic in Europe.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#718

Post by benhurmarcel »

offby37years wrote: post #120
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

Salaries are never based on any of those concepts. They are simply determined by how much it would cost to replace you. It doesn't matter that you generate billions if somebody else would accept to do it for less.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#719

Post by benhurmarcel »

eloisant wrote: post #533
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I get it, and I would completely agree if the salary gap was the same for managers, HR, etc. So the question is: why are managers, HR, etc. paid so much more than SWE in Europe? They bring less value to the company.

They are not. Pay is lower in Europe than in the US across all "well paid" jobs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#720

Post by dbetteridge »

LogicWolfe wrote: post #175
topkai22 wrote: post #124

I unfortunately don’t have much perspective on software development on Europe, but one of the differentiators I’ve observed in the US between high salary SWE jobs/regions and lower SWE jobs/regions is that engineered in the higher categories are considered a core part of the business and are deeply integrated across the business. The engineers sit closer to and interact more with the “money people” than in companies…

This explanation does a great job of describing what I've seen in Australia. I moved here from San Francisco after working at several startups including a long stint at Airbnb. I've been consistently stunned by how peripheral software is to businesses here. In the bay area organizations are structured around how they build technology and see it as a key point of competition. Here it's viewed as a cost center and usua…

This rings true so hard that it's painful.

I previously worked for a large consulting firm and in the Australian side the software arm was seen as 'just another billable unit' even though we built software primarily for internal engineers to use, this has some nasty side-effects (wasted time/money on busywork, inability to do useful work without 'proving usefulness' first).

The London arm was much more of a 'startup' focus, billing time was second to doing good work and delighting clients (internal or not).

I'm now at a London startup that 'gets it' and when I inevitably move back to Australia I'll be taking these learnings back with me and hopefully be Senior enough to try and encourage change in whichever company I end up in (assuming it is needed).

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