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Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

theguardian.com

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Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#131

Post by 40four »

lwhi wrote: post #42
40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

Both things could be true. Surely investment in monocrops is affecting wild bee population? If the pesticides affect farmed bee populations, why shouldn't they in term have the same affect on wild bees? Isn't their physiology going to be the same (or very similar)? I don't understand what you're trying to say?

I think you're right, both things are certainly true.

I might have gotten a little lost in my angry rant, but what I'm trying to say is many of these articles are not presenting the subject in a fair manner.

If the pesticides harm the beekeepers bees, they are certainly hurting wild bees too. Collateral damage from farms is real, but the percentage of wild honey bees that come in contact with these farms has to be a small percentage. The fact that these farms destroyed the bee's (and every other animal's) natural habitat in the first place is never mentioned. It's as if they want these farms to continue to operate, but without any chemicals, which in reality is impossible.

It would be best if we got all our food from small, diverse, organic farms but that's unfortunately not the system we have. I wish it was.

Also, not once ever have I seen the history of honey bees explained. Everyone wants to cry over the 'wild' honey bees dying, meanwhile nobody mentions that they are not native to America. They were brought over by European settlers. So any 'wild' populations we have in America were artificially introduced, but they want everyone to think that it's natural and they have always been here. And they want you to think that all farms, no matter the size or type rely on 'wild' honey bees to pollinate their fields.

It's unfortunate, but it's just not how out system works in the United States. So I'm trying to say I'm frustrated explaining this over and over to people that have been mislead by certain groups who only care about pushing their own agenda. If we want have a real conversation about bees, then you can't leave out the history of how they came here, and you can't leave out the large role commercial beekeepers play in our agricultural system.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#132

Post by GordonS »

40four wrote: post #126
GordonS wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're from, but for our US readers it might be worth pointing out that large farms in the UK are nowhere near the size of "large" farms in the US. I've also never heard of "bees as a service" here, though I know it exists in the US. For reference, I'm not a farmer, but live in the British countryside.

Despite having smaller farms, I would be very surprised if farmers in the UK were not working with local beekeepers. Anytime you see a those hive boxes sitting randomly in a field somewhere, this is what you are seeing.

Here in the UK, I've never seen hive boxes sitting randomly in a field :)

Since I posted my original comment, I was interested to find out more. My wife knows a couple of wives of farmer, so she asked 2 on my behalf, and both said they don't do anything like this, and haven't heard of it either. Might depend what crops you are farming, and where?

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#133

Post by GordonS »

40four wrote: post #125
monk_e_boy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, never heard of bees as a service - also live in a farming community. We farm different crops here.

From the 'National Honey Board' website (USA) https://honey.com/newsroom/presskit/honey-industry-facts Many commercial beekeepers migrate their colonies during the year to provide pollination services to farmers and to reach the most abundant sources of nectar. Millions of acres of U.S. fruit, vegetable, oilseed and legume seed crops depend on insect pollination, including honey bees. The USDA has estimated that 80 p…

We're specifically discussing about the UK in this comment thread.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#134

Post by 40four »

GordonS wrote: post #133
40four wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the 'National Honey Board' website (USA) https://honey.com/newsroom/presskit/honey-industry-facts Many commercial beekeepers migrate their colonies during the year to provide pollination services to farmers and to reach the most abundant sources of nectar. Millions of acres of U.S. fruit, vegetable, oilseed and legume seed crops depend on insect pollination, including honey bees. The USDA has estimated that 80 p…

We're specifically discussing about the UK in this comment thread.

That's fair. I guess I'm technically off topic. I shouldn't assume the systems we've built in USA apply to every other country.

It's a rant that's been building up in my head for a while, so I had to get it out :) You see these "Bees are dying" stories all the time now, and they use the same sketchy logic, and like to present the topic in a very self serving way.

In regards to this specific story, the article admits that sugar beets are not a flowering crop. There would be no reason for wild honey bees to travel in these fields.

But collateral damage from chemicals washing into waterways, or some bees flying onto the property I'm sure is a big problem. But enough to endanger the entire wild population?

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#135

Post by 40four »

GordonS wrote: post #132
40four wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite having smaller farms, I would be very surprised if farmers in the UK were not working with local beekeepers. Anytime you see a those hive boxes sitting randomly in a field somewhere, this is what you are seeing.

Here in the UK, I've never seen hive boxes sitting randomly in a field :) Since I posted my original comment, I was interested to find out more. My wife knows a couple of wives of farmer, so she asked 2 on my behalf, and both said they don't do anything like this, and haven't heard of it either. Might depend what crops you are farming, and where?

Is it possible they are growing crops that don't require pollination? Many do not.

Even though farms are smaller in the UK, am I correct in assuming that many farmers still practice mono-crop? If they do, then depending on wild pollinators alone is never going to be the best strategy. Crop yields will always increase significantly by introducing farmed bee-hives.

Here is an article I found from the UK Bee Farmers Association https://beefarmers.co.uk/working-with-other-sectors/contract...

It says in the organization even runs a 'National Pollination Service' with a sitting 'Pollination Secretary'.

I think beekeeping is a very interesting industry. I'm sure many people in the UK and the States are probably unaware of these practices and how integral they are to farming.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#136

Post by vcdimension »

reportingsjr wrote: post #49
vcdimension wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honey bee's are not native to Britain, and are not in any danger of disappearing because, like chickens, sheep, cows, and other livestock, we control their population; when demand or price of honey bee's is high beekeepers produce more, when it is low they produce less: https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/04/17/bee-apocalypse-was-neve...

Not sure how you came to that conclusion after reading that article. It states that honeybees (Apis mellifera) possibly originated in Asia and spread to Africa and Europe about 300,000 years ago. Additionally, it is likely that honeybees are native to Britain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250278609_Are_honey... The greater issue here though is that if honeybees are affected, there are likely many other be…

2nd sentence of 2nd paragraph says: "honeybees, which are actually not even native to North America, Europe or Australia" guess it depends on how you define "native"

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#137

Post by dwardu »

dwardu wrote: post #8
emayljames wrote: post #3

I don't trust the current UK government one shred, but there is a very small chance it is just for this emergency use to stop that sugar beet virus.

Was there ever a government that was really that trustworthy? We’ve been losing our freedoms for a while now.

Yes, for America there's the patriot act which removed your freedoms for safety. Even right now with corona, as controversial as it sounds, it is the question of freedom vs security.

Europe's sentiment is they want more security and are happy to give away their freedoms without a thought. Then you realise how important your freedom was to you when it's gone.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#138

Post by Sudophysics »

Anon1096 wrote: post #33
Sudophysics wrote: post #7

A society of advanced apes with a penchant for destroying their environment decides that a species that is necessary for their survival is better off dead because they don't care for a weird thing called science.

Smugly declaring that your side is based in the "science" and the other side isn't doesn't automatically make it true. The question of whether to allow a pesticide that kills bees is a public policy question, not one of science, though science can certainly be used to inform decisions.

Of course, but you don't seem to have picked up or entertain my implied sentiment and position that public policy is great at best and deception at worse and people often vote against their own interests due to lack of educated individuals, with agreed upon facts and goals, as well as critical thinking being a cultural, societal, worldwide human "common".

For a successful civillization reality must take precedence over public relations for Nature cannot be fooled.

People are just fing resistant to change and we've really made a mess in a lot of ways not good for the hive or the bess and unbound externality called willful ignorance is burning away at the roots of society, jeopardizing the tree of consciouness.

It's more than a travesty.

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