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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#551

Post by throwaway4good »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #536
throwaway4good wrote: post #436

It is not only SWE jobs that have lower salaries in Europe. Broadly speaking all jobs in Europe have lower salaries; the living standard in Europe are considerably lower than in the US. The US has a GDP pr capita of 65.000 USD, whereas the number for EU is just 36.000 USD. So what can we do? My suggestion would be to do as the Americans: Expand our military ten-fold, enforce our currency as reserve currency onto the…

> the living standard in Europe are considerably lower than in the US. Citation needed, unless you're being sarcastic throughout your post (can't tell, Poe's law?). If I get the 'rona, I might die but at least I won't go bankrupt. Anyway, GDP per capita in Europe is not the best measure, because there's still a massive economic disparity within Europe; the east is still feeling the effects of the Soviet Union (and Ru…

The first part is non-sarcastic.

The GDP pr capita is really the closest to an objective measurement for living standards.

And the GDP pr capita varies a lot inside the US as well.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#553

Post by switch007 »

alexchamberlain wrote: post #527
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. In the UK, at least, I'm not sure this is still true. On retirement, I planning on getting nothing from the government once I get there, and it's looking increasingly likely that I won't be allowed to retire until slightly later in life. That being said, I have paid off my student loans in less tha…

> On retirement, I planning on getting nothing from the government once I get there

In the UK ever less is expected of the government. I keep reading "I don't expect a state pension" on the Internet. Of course, some people look at the finances and economic outlook and arrive at that conclusion on their own, but I feel a great many others are being primed for this situation. We just expect to be screwed by our government now and it seems like defeat. :(

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#554

Post by pietrovismara »

dmurray wrote: post #193
pietrovismara wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary. Far from me to say that the system is perfect but you basically just need to work. Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe, it wouldn't make sense as those who need public welfare the most are those that can contribute less. Some countries like…

> Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary... Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe This is just incorrect. In Ireland, there is a contributory state pension [0] of up to €500 a week, which you are entitled to if you spent enough years in the workforce making tax contributions. There's also a means-tested non-contributory pension [1] of €237 per week whi…

> In Ireland, there is a contributory state pension [0] of up to €500 a week, which you are entitled to if you spent enough years in the workforce making tax contributions.

That is exactly what I said or are we not understanding each other? Your pension comes from the taxes on your salary.

The existence of private pensions doesn't deny my point. I thought it would be irrelevant to mention them as they exist everywhere.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#555

Post by oblio »

sidlls wrote: post #285
arcticbull wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but reducing inequality is as much about pulling the bottom up as it is pulling the top down. If you bring people closer together you solve both (1) and (2).

But you're all over the place arguing that pulling some in the bottom (SWEs) up will increase inequality. Unless you believe--quite wrongly--that SWEs aren't in the bottom....

I'd be shocked if software engineers aren't in the top 10% in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#556

Post by pietrovismara »

terwey wrote: post #184
pietrovismara wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary. Far from me to say that the system is perfect but you basically just need to work. Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe, it wouldn't make sense as those who need public welfare the most are those that can contribute less. Some countries like…

A lot of people confuse welfare with unemployment, I assume you mean that welfare isn't contribution based which is correct. In some countries, e.g. NL/DE, unemployment however is contribution based and you always pay for it (it's tacked on next to your normal taxed), which when needed is limited to 2 years based on 60% of your last net income. The idea is that you should still be able to afford your current way of l…

That's correct, I definitely mixed up things.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#557

Post by alkonaut »

barnacled wrote: post #522
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I honestly think this is a completely wrong-headed way of looking at things. You are paid what you're paid not because the company is determining what is 'fair' given all of your circumstances, but rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. Nearly all employees would accept more pay if they were offered it, nearly all employers would pay less if they could - so like any market it is always an equilibrium be…

> rather the minimum they feel they can get away with.

I completely agree.

I certainly would accept more pay. But I wouldn't switch jobs just to get it. There are several reasons, most importantly that interesting jobs in my niche are scarce. So my employer has a resource that is perhaps scarcer than myself!. Second (and this is the part where it becomes self-fulfilling), because there are no super high salaries, I'm close to a kind of ceiling. I'm not sure what that ceiling is and you could always be lucky and find some extremely well paying job, but let's say that for a job I'd be willing to do, the ceiling is within 50% more than I'm currently making.

If marginal taxes are 50% (at least), then that's a net 25% pay rise. It's basically $1500 more a month net, and it would require me to make probably several job switches. It's certainly not insignificant, but it's just not significant enough. Had there been jobs across the street paying 3x what I do, then certainly I'd start chasing more money. But I value my 6-8w holidays, I can already afford to travel etc. I'm comfortable.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#558

Post by ant6n »

webmaven wrote: post #289
throwaway45349 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In totalitarian states, everyone is equally poor.

> In totalitarian states, everyone is equally poor. Not quite. In totalitarian states, typically everyone's income is fairly equal. Wealth, however, is often another matter. In the soviet Union, party apparatchiks often had very nice dachas to live in, fancy cars, exclusive shopping venues with imported goods, vacations abroad, etc. But these things weren't necessarily purchased with disposable income, per-se. At lea…

After the wall came down and the GDR collapsed, East Germans were surprised how simple the life of the highest government functionaries was. They had a small gated community, with a level of luxury (except perhaps for extra labor) which is comparable to North American middle class: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldsiedlung

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#559

Post by lalo2302 »

eloisant wrote: post #533
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I get it, and I would completely agree if the salary gap was the same for managers, HR, etc. So the question is: why are managers, HR, etc. paid so much more than SWE in Europe? They bring less value to the company.

This is changing in Estonia already.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#560

Post by f6v »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #530
sparkling wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In pretty much all of the EU, even in expensive cities like Stockholm or Dublin, if you earn a salary of €100,000, you can live a pretty decent life. Define "decent". In the top tier cities in western EU countries, buying even a modest apartment that will house a small family will be a challenge on €100k (pre-tax!). It is certainly doable, but you will not be able to afford any other luxuries.

Europe doesn't value property ownership like the UK/USA/AU does - it's perfectly normal to rent for your entire life, and owning your own home is not seen as a requirement for a good life or even a wealthy one.

Europe is not homogeneous. Renting your whole life in Berlin? Yeah, maybe. But most of the Belgians are buying houses. I also heard Italians say it's crucial for them to own a house/apartment.
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