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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#541

Post by Kappe »

shekispeaks wrote: post #96
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

Getting very rich allows me to do cook less, do less chores and build up my skill further (get better) or to pursue passions that do not pay well. I calculated moving to Europe as a SWE would lead to a drastic lifestyle change for me—even with retirement, healthcare and children's education considered (with 2 children, Europe wins at 3 hands down).

I tell you a secret: When you are getting older and still solving the same issues because you are not John Carmack, you might release that cooking is actually quite great.

Its stress reducing in itself and versatile.

Nonetheless i also think its a better strategy to become rich enough fast and then retire earlier to have more time for myself and to cook more and do other normal things myself more often again.

As long as i don't have a realistic chance of getting so rich, that i can buy an island, or/and travel for 20 years firstclass, my life will not change anymore in any significant way with me earning more money.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#542

Post by shandor »

ahupp wrote: post #222

Major US tech companies earn a profit-per-employee of $200-400k[0]. That's across every employee, so depending on how you attribute value the profit-per-SWE is much higher. That gives a lot of headroom to drive up salaries when competing for hires, and in part sets the market price. I suspect that low European software salaries are just a function of low profitability of European software companies. e.g, spotify is (…

Keep in mind that those numbers are for the absolute top tech companies even in the US (and by extension, the world). Even in the PPE top 10, the last one Texas Instruments is ~40k less than the number 5.

It would be actually very, very interesting to see the PPE information for a more comprehensive set of companies in the US and EU tech sectors.

Or maybe it's me out of the loop and the six figure salaries are the norm in the US even outside the most profitable companies in the world?

Edit: welp, of course the data was linked in the article: https://tipalti.com/profit-per-employee/

Just picking companies randomly a little lower from the list, Qualcomm is 118k, Oracle 81k, Advanced Micro Devices 30k.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#543

Post by eloisant »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #378
adrianN wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home ownership is strongly influenced by culture. Germans are just happier to rent. Buying often doesn't make a lot of sense financially either. It's not much cheaper to buy than to rent and you lose a lot of flexibility. I could afford to buy a house, but I don't want to. That would just tie up a large fraction of my wealth into one fairly risky investment and make it much harder to move when my life changes.

What’s risky about the investment? I’m of the impression that real estate is one of the more stable investments, subprime mortgage scandals notwithstanding.

Buying your home isn't an investment, it's only an investment if you can sell it at any time.

Risks of buying your home include: - Not being able to move if you can't sell (because the market isn't right) - Being stuck in a house where you pay a high mortgage while you could rent for much less after a crash (what happened in Spain after 2008). Note than in US you can give up your house and your mortgage goes away, but that doesn't work this way in Europe. The bank sells your house and if it doesn't cover the mortgage you still owe the rest

Also if you sell too early after buying, you're losing money because you pay more in transaction fees that you would have in rent (unless there is a big spike in prices).

Anyway, for a long time real estate have been steadily appreciating and people (especially boomers) got used to it, to the point that all their reasoning about real estate is that it's appreciating faster than inflation. It was true for a long period but that's no longer the case.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#544

Post by Kappe »

ahupp wrote: post #222

Major US tech companies earn a profit-per-employee of $200-400k[0]. That's across every employee, so depending on how you attribute value the profit-per-SWE is much higher. That gives a lot of headroom to drive up salaries when competing for hires, and in part sets the market price. I suspect that low European software salaries are just a function of low profitability of European software companies. e.g, spotify is (…

Silicon Valley/San Francisco etc. was and still is the epi centry of IT.

That doesn't tell you AT ALL if Europe companies are 'low profitabile' or just 'avg'/'normal' while no one can just comped with the history of SV/SFR.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#545

Post by rorykoehler »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I live in Germany and don't have any of those things. This attitude pisses me off to no end because it forces everyone into the subservient employee rut. I don't trust or want to rely on the government and pensions especially. Higher education and healthcare I like but at a primary and secondary school level they force you to go to school but the schooling they provide is not at an acceptable level. I would never pay for it if it wasn't free. Everything in Europe is designed around keeping the wealthy wealthy and the proles under the thumb. It's a deadend road. I support your right to choose this path but I don't agree it should come at the expense of the intellectually curious and entrepreneurial types.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#546

Post by thesimon »

dgellow wrote: post #519
sparkling wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In pretty much all of the EU, even in expensive cities like Stockholm or Dublin, if you earn a salary of €100,000, you can live a pretty decent life. Define "decent". In the top tier cities in western EU countries, buying even a modest apartment that will house a small family will be a challenge on €100k (pre-tax!). It is certainly doable, but you will not be able to afford any other luxuries.

What locations are you considering? Because €100k/year in Germany is a really high income.

Still, buying a house for your family will be difficult in the main cities.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#547

Post by bashwizard »

trcollinson wrote: post #139
refurb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously it’s a personal choice as to what’s important, but the salary difference between the US and EU is still larger than any of the financial benefits to being in the EU. Getting 6 weeks of vacation instead of 3? I’d still rather take the extra $150k. Having to shell out $15k for healthcare each year? I’d still take the extra $150k.

I'm pretty much at the top end of the salary range where I live. I don't make an extra $150,000. I make a sizable amount. But outside of a few niche places and a few niche companies in those places, people aren't making an extra $150,000 in the US.

The vast majority of SWE in the US doesn't even make $150k/year so yeah, good luck with that $150k extra.

Last time I checked the average salary for SWE in the US was roughly $110k.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#548

Post by Kappe »

qafy wrote: post #272
ahupp wrote: post #222

Major US tech companies earn a profit-per-employee of $200-400k[0]. That's across every employee, so depending on how you attribute value the profit-per-SWE is much higher. That gives a lot of headroom to drive up salaries when competing for hires, and in part sets the market price. I suspect that low European software salaries are just a function of low profitability of European software companies. e.g, spotify is (…

I would love to see some research on the factors that contribute to this. Work culture? Leadership culture? Rigor in interviewing process? Education? There has to be a reason US tech employees are 5x-10x as "productive". What are we doing differently?

I would like to see numbers which would compare the 'normal' IT market from US with the normal IT market from Europe.

No one can beat Companies like Google, MS, Amazon.

Even a company like Facebook which basically does nothing useful earns so much money just because it was the social media platform which was early enough and one.

And with Google and similiar companies having the money year over year to hire the best people puts them even further at the edge.

It is not magic to be market leader in a market as young as it.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#549

Post by benzoate »

BorisTheBrave wrote: post #520
robertlagrant wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a major outlier if it's common. 100k USD in GBP is 73347.60. In the UK you'd be taxed 30% on that, including national insurance. https://listentotaxman.com/73347.60

No, in the UK, your marginal rate at that income would be 42% (40% income + 2% National Insurance).

+9% if you’re still repaying student loans, which is common until 40s.

Student loans operate like a tax in the U.K., taking 9% of your pre-tax income above 15 or 25k directly from your payslip.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#550

Post by Hamuko »

titanomachy wrote: post #456
anoncake wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you don't realize is that you rely on your government just as much as we do on ours. If it fails, it can't protect your property rights anymore and your net worth is just a theoretical number.

A developed country's government failing to the point that it can no longer guarantee property rights is pretty unusual. Running out of money to pay pensions is much more common, and it seems somewhat likely given the way demographics are headed.

A bunch of angry people storming the seat of the legislative branch sounds pretty unusual for a developed country as well.
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