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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#431

Post by pm90 »

titanomachy wrote: post #421
ilikeerp wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not insane - it's pretty common in most developed countries. The US is a major outlier.

In many developed countries, 42% tax would cover healthcare, a pension you can actually live off of, and fully-paid education for all of your children. Californians get none of those things, and I don't really understand what it is that they get over (e.g.) Washingtonians for the extra ~30% in taxes.

They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc.

I get your point that the US doesn’t provide as much social services as other developed nations. Almost all these nations depend on US hegemony to not have to spend as much on their military. This is a choice that the US made. There are good arguments for scaling back military spending and increasing social spending without compromising US hegemony though, however those choices may not be politically expedient so here we are.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#432

Post by kortilla »

arcticbull wrote: post #344
Izikiel43 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of CEO makes 250 million? Microsoft's CEO made ~44 million last year, and Microsoft is a trillion dollar company ( https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2020/10/20/microsof... .)

Well, there's papa elon who made $2.3B in 2018. Though, I agree, that's a massive outlier :) Zaslav at Discovery was next in line with $129M total comp in 2018 [1]. Sounds like Satya needs to ask for a raise ;) [1] https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/discovery-ceo-david-z...

You’re confusing compensation with stock appreciation.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#433

Post by fogihujy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #360
taneq wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or starvation, or being eaten by a grue. People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. They don't because actually, living in civilization with abundant cheap food, clean running hot and cold water, indoor plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and entertainment is great.

> People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. Well, I mean, except property rights and the people that will defend them in most of the places in the planet suitable for human habitation.

The Missus and I tried to plan going back to nature as a quarantine thought experiment. The conclusion was that it's simply not possible in most of Europe unless one manages to find a Sami spouse, and even then, most Sami seem to live fairly modern lives. As a Nordic citizen the Greenland option is there as well, but the situation is similar to the Sami one.

And the above presumes the existing population would accept you, and it's quite likely they won't.

Deciding to live off the land without special privileges enjoyed by native populations is simply not possible; regular financial transactions between you and society is a requirement, and it's pretty much impossible to raise children without access to modernities and without having the authorities go after you for child abuse.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#434

Post by arp242 »

arcticbull wrote: post #85
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

> Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why can't I afford a house?"

This problem isn't unique to the US, and exists in Europe too, as well as New Zealand and probably other countries too. For this particular point, the US and Europe aren't all that different.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#435

Post by alkonaut »

friedman23 wrote: post #63
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I don't think you've fully thought through your position. You making less isn't some altruistic thing. You making less directly contributes to your (already likely wealthy) boss making more. It's not like you making less means the poor live better lives, it's essentially donating money to your employer.

It’s not altruism, it’s just that I’d need to actively chase more pay to get it. And I’m not in a position where I want to (don’t want to switch jobs etc). Marginal taxes are also quite high (over 50%) so there are diminishing returns.

For reference I make around $70k as a senior type eng. Not huge but the “ceiling” (for cash comp) if I switched jobs 10 times and ended up at a very well paying job in the end would be 20-40% more - which is 10-20% net!

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#436

Post by throwaway4good »

It is not only SWE jobs that have lower salaries in Europe.

Broadly speaking all jobs in Europe have lower salaries; the living standard in Europe are considerably lower than in the US.

The US has a GDP pr capita of 65.000 USD, whereas the number for EU is just 36.000 USD.

So what can we do?

My suggestion would be to do as the Americans: Expand our military ten-fold, enforce our currency as reserve currency onto the rest of the world, run massive deficits.

We used to be really good at this stuff, too bad we have fallen behind.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#437

Post by vatican_banker »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could [...] I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my colleagues.

Honestly this part of the European mentality is hard for an outsider understand. I lived there for ~10 years and heard this argument countless times.

I want a fulfilling life and part of that is a fulfilling job. It's hard to believe a job on the same company can be fulfilling for 20+ years. Changing jobs is part of professional growth IMO.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#438

Post by alkonaut »

nathias wrote: post #425
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

That is a completely wrong perspective, and might be symptomatic. You are not paid according to some argument that you personally deserve to be rich, you should be paid according to the value you produce in your context. And the relevant context is more and more global.

I didn’t say deserve - but since switching jobs is a chore, I’d want to be compensated for it. I don’t think it’s a job that should necessarily make me very rich though. Taking risk should, but just creating value that someone else can produce? There is talent scarcity but not that much scarcity. Other people would do my job at my pay (which I guess ties into the topic!)

With the highest salaries perhaps 20-40% higher than mine and marginal tax 50% making that 10-20%, the prospect is basically, would I switch jobs a few times for that little, when I like my situation?

If the ceiling was higher, I’d switch. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy :)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#439

Post by mister_hn »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

It all boils down to what you want in your life.

I've seen people (including myself) trying to change the lifestyle, thus money is a vehicle to do so and to build something with. Not everybody has got rich parents or sugar daddies, some people start from nearly zero and try to climb the social ladder.

A higher salary can unlock multiple benefits, in terms of long-term economical security (e. g. in case of market crash and companies go bankrupt / berserk mode, laying people off) and maybe buy yourself a house/apartment.

Plus, saving for children's future is one of the best gift a parent can do.

Coming to an end: having a salary which is similar to what in SF are offered would be really good

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#440

Post by alkonaut »

vatican_banker wrote: post #437
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could [...] I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my colleagues. Honestly this part of the European mentality is hard for an outsider understand. I lived there for ~10 years and heard this argument countless times. I want a fulfilling life and part of that is a fulfilling job. It's hard to believe a job on the same company can be fulfilli…

Fwiw, I did change and change back.

If I was working in web/db/internet stuff there would be much more jobs of the same kind. Then I’d switch more too I think. The reason I’m sticking is also because I work in a niche (which I like).

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