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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#401

Post by fulafel »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #378
adrianN wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home ownership is strongly influenced by culture. Germans are just happier to rent. Buying often doesn't make a lot of sense financially either. It's not much cheaper to buy than to rent and you lose a lot of flexibility. I could afford to buy a house, but I don't want to. That would just tie up a large fraction of my wealth into one fairly risky investment and make it much harder to move when my life changes.

What’s risky about the investment? I’m of the impression that real estate is one of the more stable investments, subprime mortgage scandals notwithstanding.

What isn't? Volatile market value, risks of breakdowns and fires and previously undiscovered structural flaws, fires, natural distasters, etc. It's putting a lot of your eggs in one basket, which in investment terms is same as foregoing diversification, ie taking on a lot of risk for no corresponding increase in returns. Depending on jurisdiction, risk of unfair treatment in a divorce. High transaction costs when changing housing due to changing life circumstances. And to top it off you are binding the important service of having a roof over your head to the fate of this investment.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#402

Post by irrational »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #385
ulfw wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I am sorry but earning millions for 20 hours of work a week isn't normal in any kind of job I've seen. So count your blessings and luck. Normal this ain't.

Agreed - a lot of the parts of his story I thought "OK, that sounds extremely rare, but possible", but the working "20-30 hours a week" bit? Where the hell is that? Do people at FAANGs honestly work 4-6 hours a day 5 days a week?

I don't work at a FAANG. Not even close. I've been working remotely for most of the last year (just like everyone else), so I do about 4-5 hours of work in the morning and then spend the rest of the day remodeling the house. But even when I worked at the office, I would roll in around 10am. I'd go work out at one of the campus fitness facilities from 1-3 (15 minutes to walk there, 5 to change, 1 hour to work out, 10 minutes in the sauna, 10 minutes to shower and change, 15 minute walk back), and then head home at 5. And I always get exceptional year end reviews because I always get my work done in a timely manner.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#403

Post by ilikeerp »

strombofulous wrote: post #359
arcticbull wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're making 100K in California, your marginal tax rate is: - Federal: 24% - State: 9.3% - FICA: 7.65% (6.2% social security, 1.45% medicare) - SDI: 1% This gets you to 42%. Your employer matches the FICA payments too, so that's closer to 50% of your take-home pay. Once you make enough to pay off the regressive FICA taxes ($142K) you get bumped back down to "just" the mid-high 30% range briefly, until you hit $16…

Wow, I had no idea

It's not insane - it's pretty common in most developed countries. The US is a major outlier.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#404

Post by throwaway894345 »

terwey wrote: post #174
nackerhewz wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because most people in Europe don't really make enough to do so. Also if you somehow manage to increase your income, over half of it disappears in taxes and social security contributions.

Denmark and the Netherlands have the highest income tax bracket at 52/53%. Germany is 43%. However they are stacked taxes. In Germany (where I reside), the first €9744 (2021) is untaxed, then 14% until a certain amount (can't find it atm) and max 43%. However, if you do your tax returns your effective tax rate will drop significantly. I'd wager that most pay around 25% in total income taxes, excluding things like the…

I was laid off recently due to the pandemic. Because I work in tech, it took me two weeks to find a new job and it ended up being a promotion and a 20% raise. I would make 40% less in Europe, even in a big city, and unless I lived in a small European town my cost of living would be quite a lot higher. Even factoring healthcare (contrary to what Europeans perceive, the healthcare system works very well for the upper middle class) and student loan debt, I’m far better off financially than I would be in Europe.

Of course, this isn’t true for Americans in general. I want us to adopt European social policies; however, for SWEs, the financials are just better in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#405

Post by anovikov »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

Upvote for your nickname!

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#406

Post by irrational »

KraftKacke wrote: post #194
irrational wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

Soooo... You think this is how things should be?

My point is that if I in the USA can have similar benefits as developers in Europe (based on OP's comment) then they should be able to be paid the same as developers in the USA.

OP seemed to be saying that because of all the benefits it was okay they were paid so poorly. But we can have similar benefits here, so they can have similar pay there.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#407

Post by irrational »

oneplane wrote: post #338
irrational wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

The irony is that with all your knowledge you can't see that even if that is a universally desirable situation it isn't scalable.

To the entire population? No. To developers in Europe? I would say yes. If we can have similar benefits to what they have, they can have similar pay to what we have.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#409

Post by joelbluminator »

ff232fffffrt wrote: post #343
joelbluminator wrote: post #105

Stop skilled visas and free movement of people within the EU.

Skilled people usually pass by the Europe, because they can make much more money somewhere else. It's poorly educated people who move to Europe to get free social services.

Thats nonsense, tech companies in Germany,Netherlands etc are filled with educated developers from Russia, Ukraine, India and so on. Not everyone wants to or can go to the U.S. btw Pfizer vaccine was developed in Germany by a Turkish immigrant.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#410

Post by jtwaleson »

dnpp123 wrote: post #342
drdaeman wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My net salary is just over 1000€ That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offense meant - it is a good country, just isn't one famous for high incomes), easily makes at least 2k (and I say "at least" - that's awfully underpaid). > that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year That's a bit…

> That's really low, even for poorer European countries He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker".

Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you consider hiring me." With this mindset you don't expect high wages.

Hacker: I am a ninja rockstar, I don't need any certifications and you should be happy if I decide to work for you because I should actually be working at FAANG.

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