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Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

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Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#231

Post by wheels »

mapgrep wrote: post #225
wheels wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys are doing it again -- idealizing the other side of the fence as if everything was all rainbows and unicorns in Europe. In Germany and many European countries, you pay for healthcare and it costs a lot -- you simply don't have the option of not having healthcare and the cost is proportional to your income rather than your health condition. Also note that the employee caries the full cost of health insurance a…

I really appreciate your reply and the global perspective! That said, I'm not sure about Germany being approximately as rough as the U.S.. * Retirement - Our benefit is well under half of yours. The _minimum_ German pension, the floor, after reform will be 67 percent of national average wage (cites below). In the U.S., the average social security benefit is $1,153, annualized to $13,863 or about 34 percent of the ave…

What I meant on the German and US systems is that they're both pay-in-get-something out. Germans pay about double for social security, so it's not a huge surprise that the benefits are higher. My point was not that Germans do not get more benefits, but that's it's not a large factor in contrasting wages. (i.e. if American professionals put the money into a 401k that would go into the required German pension funding, then the benefits would probably work out to being roughly comparable).

For unemployment the housing costs that are reimbursed are "reasonable" costs, not "whatever your costs are", i.e. they're capped per region. The 60% you're seeing there is for those who have paid for "Arbeitslosengeld I", which is only available to those who have been full-time employed and are terminated (though if you quit on your own, you're eligible after 3 months). Freelancers, recent grads, business owners, etc. are not eligible for "ALG I". There's also a time limit on how long you can receive it.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#232

Post by richcollins »

wheels wrote: post #141

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6. That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much money. For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spen…

Or you could be a contract developer in the US, make 2x US employee salary and take vacation whenever you don't have an active project (months if you want).

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#233

Post by david927 »

wheels wrote: post #201
chrisaycock wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not to mention: * Healthcare - Health insurance is often a luxury in America. The elderly have Medicare, but there is (currently) no safety for most citizens. * Public transportation - Many US cities don't have adequate bus service. Just anyone who lives outside NYC or a college town will need a car.

You guys are doing it again -- idealizing the other side of the fence as if everything was all rainbows and unicorns in Europe. In Germany and many European countries, you pay for healthcare and it costs a lot -- you simply don't have the option of not having healthcare and the cost is proportional to your income rather than your health condition. Also note that the employee caries the full cost of health insurance a…

We're not idealizing: European take home less pay and pay more in taxes -- but get huge social benefits. If you're honestly trying to argue an equivalence in US and Europe in terms of such benefits, you're crazy. Europe is a big word as each country varies. That said...

In Germany and many European countries, you pay for healthcare and it costs a lot

But, from the studies I've seen, Europeans on average spend about half in terms of healthcare.

New York and San Francisco, also have quite good public transit

No, they simply have public transit -- it's not great by any means. You often have to supplement with taxi in both places. (The rates are high there because costs of living are very high in both places.)

Unemployment compensation in most European countries is vastly better. Free university systems? That's nice. My point is that we know it's not all rainbows and unicorns in Europe but you can't argue that you don't get a whole lot for those taxes.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#234

Post by hollerith »

Bobby_Tables wrote: post #71
farrel wrote: post #42

How many Americans can only afford health coverage via their workplace plan? How many Americans live in right-to-work states and can be dismissed without a reason? Add that together and you have a lot of fear.

Nitpick: you're referring to at-will employment, not right-to-work. Right-to-work laws mean that you can't be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment. At-will employment means that you can (theoretically) be fired or quit at any time for no reason.

Though the two are related in that almost all of the employees that cannot be terminated at the employer's will are unionized. Even in the right-to-work states, almost all of the employees of governments and universities cannot be fired at will.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#235

Post by Maakuth »

OstiaAntica wrote: post #196
chrisaycock wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not to mention: * Healthcare - Health insurance is often a luxury in America. The elderly have Medicare, but there is (currently) no safety for most citizens. * Public transportation - Many US cities don't have adequate bus service. Just anyone who lives outside NYC or a college town will need a car.

Medicaid provides a health insurance safety net for tens of millions of working and poor Americans...in fact there are more Americans in a federal health program (Medicaid, SCHIP, Medicare) than the entire population Germany.

I've heard that Medicare + Medicaid actually cost a bigger part of your national budget than in Europe, yet it ends up creating a weaker coverage health service coverage for only part of your people, compared to covering everyone in most of the European countries. There's differences between countries here obviously, but US healthcare seems to be less efficient than the European systems.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#236

Post by afterburner »

macrael wrote: post #185

I've found this is something that really surprises Europeans. But, once, when I was comparing notes with some travelers in a hostel in New Zealand, we asked a South Korean among us for his perspective. He said that he and everyone he knows gets maybe 2 days paid vacation a year. They work most weekends and get maybe 1 holiday. He said if you want to travel, you have to quit your job to do it, with no guarantee you wi…

According to this source, the average number of paid vacation days in Korea (presumably South Korea) is 25 days:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html

I'm actually kind of surprised at how good the Canadian number is compared to the US (I'm in Canada). But now that I think about it, I do get 3 weeks plus stat holidays (about 1 week) and a December company shutdown (another 4 days or so). I haven't been shy about asking for unpaid days off either.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#237

Post by exit »

jasonkester wrote: post #107
wccrawford wrote: post #4

When I complained to an employer that it was too hard to request my vacation time (it's in my contract, they made it very hard to pick dates by always having an emergency deadline, etc) they replied "It's like that everywhere", as if it was a legit answer. Many employers also lump in sick time with vacation time, as if that's a replacement since you didn't come into work. That would probably be okay, if you had an op…

Think about your choice of words up there, and you might just come up with your solution. Force. As in, my employer is forcing me to take shorter vacations. My employer is forcing me to work my vacations around their schedule. That's not what he's doing. He's coercing you. It's different. He's implying that if you take the vacation you want, there might not be a job waiting when you get back. The answer to that is "f…

so none of your advice applies to the inevitable majority of replaceable workers

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#238

Post by exit »

mvalle wrote: post #120
jasonkester wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about your choice of words up there, and you might just come up with your solution. Force. As in, my employer is forcing me to take shorter vacations. My employer is forcing me to work my vacations around their schedule. That's not what he's doing. He's coercing you. It's different. He's implying that if you take the vacation you want, there might not be a job waiting when you get back. The answer to that is "f…

or, if the employer knows that if she finds a replacement for you, she will have to find replacements for all her employees, then she won't bother coercing you at all.

xnerdr: all of your comments are being automatically deaded. you account has been quitely blacklisted or something..

xnerdr 2 hours ago | link | parent [dead] | on: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

and this is why i'm amazed programmers have not yet formed a union.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#239

Post by ben1040 »

zdw wrote: post #3

One result of this is that businesses chuck human redundancy out the window. Often there's only one person who can do a business critical task, and as they can't really be gone from work for that long, the business gets by. From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for business process.

From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for business process.

Or, when combined with a minimal vacation time bucket, forced vacation makes sure your employees will be there when you want them to be.

I know an auditor at a Big 4 accounting firm. The employees in her office are forced to take some vacation time during the slow time of the year. That way it burns down vacation time that they could otherwise be using during crunch time and causing short-staffing.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#240

Post by hollerith »

pnathan wrote: post #101

I would not mind a split between paid and unpaid vacation. I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working. I don't live to work. I work to live.

>I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working.

Because you probably do not get a charge out of getting something for nothing -- but many do.

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