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What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

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Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#21

Post by gruseom »

aswanson wrote: post #10
martythemaniak wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, as if there weren't enough populist demagogues blaming every problem on immigrants already, now we have to put up with you here on HN. http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm Have a look at the rankings at the bottom, and then explain why Canada, with about 3-4 times more immigration per capita, outscores the US.

Don't bait him. His SEO technique is to spam more popular blogs/forums with links back to his, and to get into these types of arguments, producing more link opportunities for him. Worse, we may get more of his constituency moving in. (There goes the neighborhood). The best method to protect the site from being inundated with more stuff like this is to try to stay as hacker-focused as possible, perhaps relegating the…

The best method to protect the site from being inundated with more stuff like this...

You may be right. It may not (yet) be possible to have a sincere public discussion that isn't drowned out by PC ideologues on one side and racists and xenophobes on the other. It's not always easy to tell who's who, either: sometimes uttering "what you can't say" is an act of courage, sometimes it just means you're an asshole. Intentions and emotions are part of this, and they're harder to read outside the personal sphere.

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#22

Post by Alex3917 »

aswanson wrote: post #10
martythemaniak wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, as if there weren't enough populist demagogues blaming every problem on immigrants already, now we have to put up with you here on HN. http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm Have a look at the rankings at the bottom, and then explain why Canada, with about 3-4 times more immigration per capita, outscores the US.

Don't bait him. His SEO technique is to spam more popular blogs/forums with links back to his, and to get into these types of arguments, producing more link opportunities for him. Worse, we may get more of his constituency moving in. (There goes the neighborhood). The best method to protect the site from being inundated with more stuff like this is to try to stay as hacker-focused as possible, perhaps relegating the…

"Worse, we may get more of his constituency moving in. (There goes the neighborhood)."

We should do everything we can to keep out these immigrants.

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#23

Post by gruseom »

mynameishere wrote: post #18
martythemaniak wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, as if there weren't enough populist demagogues blaming every problem on immigrants already, now we have to put up with you here on HN. http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm Have a look at the rankings at the bottom, and then explain why Canada, with about 3-4 times more immigration per capita, outscores the US.

Canada has extremely rigorous requirements for immigrants.

"Canada" and "extremely" in the same phrase? An oxymoron!

Edit: I almost didn't post this because people are being so sensitive today. But you're a tough guy. :)

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#24

Post by mixmax »

enra wrote: post #9

I'm Finnish and I would say "I don't know". Article paints quite a rosy picture which isn't necessary true. Finnish schools(elementary to high school) are very boring. There are almost no other activities, no special classes, no school sports(only p.e. for everybody), no advanced classes and teaching is mostly done with books, paper and board. Teachers maybe still care little bit about there students and think the ma…

I'll have a stab at an explanation.

I'm Danish, and I suspect that the Danish school system is similar to the Finnish. It also seems that Danes are held in some regard internationally - so an explanation rooted in the Danish educational system is probably not much off.

The Danish scchool system doesn't only teach you answers, it also teaches you which questions to ask. Schoolkids are encouraged to come up with their own ideas and explanations - and to be able to argue their validity. This ingrains a different kind of knowledge: Instead of kids that are able to recite the periodic table you get kids that are able to explain why it is put together the way it is. I think this is the pivotal point.

I don't think Danish, or Finnish, kids are smarter per se, but they are better at holistic thinking, reasoning and abstract thought because they learn from a young age to ask interesting questions and demand coherent answers.

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#25

Post by gojomo »

occam wrote: post #4

"... one of the lowest percentages of immigrants of any Western European country: only two percent of its 5.2 million residents. And a substantial fraction of Finland's immigrants consist of spouses of Finns, Finnish-speaking citizens of Russia (there are pockets of Finnish-speakers throughout the forests of northern Russia), Estonians, whose Uralic language is closest to Finnish, and Swedes (Swedish is the second of…

I'm pro-immigration, in the classic "the more the merrier" tradition of those with confidence in both markets and human innovation.

But to be intellectually honest, we have to acknowledge that immigrants of different languages, cultures, and economic backgrounds will bring many 'average' statistics of education (and health, etc.) down. This is even true if the immigration is a net-benefit to both natives and newcomers.

With that in mind, the massive downvoting of the parent comment (at -9 at one point) is a dishonest enforcement of political correctness.

Even if you disagree with the conclusions of the linked article, and the other views of that article's author, the comment here is factual and relevant to the topic at hand, and the linked article includes other useful facts about Finland.

If the submission question "What makes Finnish kids so smart?" is legitimate at all -- the study of why one country has different results than others -- discussion has to be free to consider major things that make that country different from others. In Finland's case, that includes its traditional and apparently legally-enforced homogeneity.

I would not want to live in such a place, but I don't want my understanding of such places crippled by a long list of "things you can't say".

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#26

Post by jmtame »

pg wrote: post #16
enra wrote: post #9

I'm Finnish and I would say "I don't know". Article paints quite a rosy picture which isn't necessary true. Finnish schools(elementary to high school) are very boring. There are almost no other activities, no special classes, no school sports(only p.e. for everybody), no advanced classes and teaching is mostly done with books, paper and board. Teachers maybe still care little bit about there students and think the ma…

There are almost no other activities, no special classes, no school sports (only p.e. for everybody), no advanced classes and teaching is mostly done with books, paper and board. Maybe this is good.

When I read that part I immediately thought of your essay "Why Nerds are Unpopular."

Maybe there's a bit of psychology at play here. There might be a lower out casting of nerds if the popularity gap is smaller. Going off the essay, maybe it's far more acceptable to become more intelligent (both intellectually and scholastically) in this type of environment.

If that's the case, it sounds like a school full of nerds who are cool with nerds--sign me up!

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#27

Post by whacked_new »

enra wrote: post #9

I'm Finnish and I would say "I don't know". Article paints quite a rosy picture which isn't necessary true. Finnish schools(elementary to high school) are very boring. There are almost no other activities, no special classes, no school sports(only p.e. for everybody), no advanced classes and teaching is mostly done with books, paper and board. Teachers maybe still care little bit about there students and think the ma…

Could you explain why having a classmate that didn't speak Finnish natively is helpful for keeping up the bar?

Suppose you have an excellent transfer student who could do everything you did, but not in Finnish. Wouldn't your interaction be some kind of training for effective communication? Assuming again that said student is excellent, you would expect them to pick up the language in about a year, and wouldn't expect they become a hindrance during, would you?

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#28

Post by mynameishere »

gojomo wrote: post #25
occam wrote: post #4

"... one of the lowest percentages of immigrants of any Western European country: only two percent of its 5.2 million residents. And a substantial fraction of Finland's immigrants consist of spouses of Finns, Finnish-speaking citizens of Russia (there are pockets of Finnish-speakers throughout the forests of northern Russia), Estonians, whose Uralic language is closest to Finnish, and Swedes (Swedish is the second of…

I'm pro-immigration, in the classic "the more the merrier" tradition of those with confidence in both markets and human innovation. But to be intellectually honest, we have to acknowledge that immigrants of different languages, cultures, and economic backgrounds will bring many 'average' statistics of education (and health, etc.) down. This is even true if the immigration is a net-benefit to both natives and newcomer…

legally-enforced homogeneity

Honest question: Would you want to live in a country with legally-enforced diversity?

(Because that's where you're living.)

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#29

Post by enra »

whacked_new wrote: post #27
enra wrote: post #9

I'm Finnish and I would say "I don't know". Article paints quite a rosy picture which isn't necessary true. Finnish schools(elementary to high school) are very boring. There are almost no other activities, no special classes, no school sports(only p.e. for everybody), no advanced classes and teaching is mostly done with books, paper and board. Teachers maybe still care little bit about there students and think the ma…

Could you explain why having a classmate that didn't speak Finnish natively is helpful for keeping up the bar? Suppose you have an excellent transfer student who could do everything you did, but not in Finnish. Wouldn't your interaction be some kind of training for effective communication? Assuming again that said student is excellent, you would expect them to pick up the language in about a year, and wouldn't expect…

I was thinking more about elementary education. I also excluded exchange students since they probably don't take the test. You are right. It could be helpful in other ways, but probably not in the scoring of PISA.

I would assume that learning won't get any easier when you don't know the language. If you get bad start early on, it can hurt you later on or even frustrade you. So even it might be small aspect, it seems that PISA-test rewards for homogenous.

Re: What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?

#30

Post by gojomo »

mynameishere wrote: post #28
gojomo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pro-immigration, in the classic "the more the merrier" tradition of those with confidence in both markets and human innovation. But to be intellectually honest, we have to acknowledge that immigrants of different languages, cultures, and economic backgrounds will bring many 'average' statistics of education (and health, etc.) down. This is even true if the immigration is a net-benefit to both natives and newcomer…

legally-enforced homogeneity Honest question: Would you want to live in a country with legally-enforced diversity? (Because that's where you're living.)

The question is too vague to answer. What kind of 'diversity' and how is it 'enforced'?

I haven't emigrated, and I prefer more open immigration than either Finland or the U.S. allow.

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