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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#181

Post by quantumofalpha »

ergocoder wrote: post #14
Jyaif wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). The job security on the other hand is very real, so if you want to coast at your job, europe is the way to go.

There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

> There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe.

Proprietary trading shops in London at the top end or L6+ at Google Zurich can pay that in total comp.

> I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

And what about stocks? There should be at least another 100k in them. Facebook is a publicly tradable company, its RSUs are as good as cash, unlike startup paper money.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#182

Post by dzonga »

the problem here you're only looking at one measurement. but life is not measured using one number. honestly, some things can't be measured using numbers. and to those saying competition raises salary, I would say they're roughly right - but you're falling for the narrative fallacy.

the reason, salaries are high here (US) has mostly to do with inequality. remember the average ceo has 2100x wage than the average employee. and likewise, that also pushes the wage envelope for people in the profit center. but in tech not everything is code. support people etc are massively underpaid compared to the value they produce. also while scrum masters are massively overpaid. so yeah you answer is more cultural!! not competition or market factors. but cultural.

in america culture is individualistic, case in point there's huge wage discrepancy between people working the same role | level e.g one Software Engineer could make 20k more or 30k because of negotiation skills.

and I bet quality of life of an average engineer in low paid Europe is way better than your run off the mill engineer here in the US. Healthcare is atrocious! let's see what your high salary will do when you get a surprise medical bill. Last thing SV salaries are not representative of average american tech salaries. most people here seem to forget that.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#183

Post by bcrosby95 »

jldugger wrote: post #164
ingvul wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average salary for a Software Engineer is $107K per year in United States. The average salary for a Software Engineer is $66K per year in Germany (~61% less). Source: indeed and payscale. I always find a bit funny when US devs in HN talk about getting salaries above $200K/year... when the average US dev gets half of that. (I find it funny because everybody here thinks we are above the average dev level and can ge…

Well, IDK where I fit on the skill curve but... my total comp is personally well above that line. There's definitely a bi-modal effect with tech companies issuing RSUs that appreciate dramatically vs. random insurance company or telco.

> RSUs that appreciate dramatically

Well, yeah, luck certainly can factor in. There was a year I made around 1.35 million in total comp due to luck like this. Nowadays I mostly make around 150k.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#184

Post by terwey »

pietrovismara wrote: post #169
hogFeast wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what that alludes to either. Germans and Italians save huge amounts of their income (typically, higher than the US). You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy, one isn't given to you (state pensions in Europe, even in the UK, are contribution-based). Welfare systems in Europe are not redistributive like in the US, they are typically contributory (you get out what you put in).…

> You still need to save for a pension in almost every European economy Uh, no? Pensions are contribution based but that contribution comes from taxes on your salary. Far from me to say that the system is perfect but you basically just need to work. Welfare is absolutely not contributory in Europe, it wouldn't make sense as those who need public welfare the most are those that can contribute less. Some countries like…

A lot of people confuse welfare with unemployment, I assume you mean that welfare isn't contribution based which is correct.

In some countries, e.g. NL/DE, unemployment however is contribution based and you always pay for it (it's tacked on next to your normal taxed), which when needed is limited to 2 years based on 60% of your last net income. The idea is that you should still be able to afford your current way of living without too many compromises when you got laid off and haven't found a new job yet.

In Germany for example welfare isn't great, it's around €400/mo though the state pays your rent directly.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#185

Post by ricardobeat »

shekispeaks wrote: post #96
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

Getting very rich allows me to do cook less, do less chores and build up my skill further (get better) or to pursue passions that do not pay well. I calculated moving to Europe as a SWE would lead to a drastic lifestyle change for me—even with retirement, healthcare and children's education considered (with 2 children, Europe wins at 3 hands down).

Reminds me of something I read a few weeks ago. An old lady who lives in a cabin in the woods is being interviewed. The interviewer asks: "isn't it incredibly inconvenient that you need to gather firewood and light a fire every time you want to drink some tea?"

"Isn't it inconvenient that you have to work for someone else for 8 hours every day, only so you don't need to start a fire?"

I'm positive you can do all of those things with an average salary, at least in northern europe. There is little to worry about once you have a roof over your head. You may not have that Tesla though.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#186

Post by coolspot »

irrational wrote: post #171
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

First rule of the Happy FAANG Employee Club is to not tell anyone about how awesome your job is.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#187

Post by mciancia »

trcollinson wrote: post #162
marcinzm wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* Substantially more actual vacation time This depends on the company, last startup I worked at gave me around 6 weeks of vacation per year not counting holidays. Of course I got paid less than FAANG but still better than Europe even without the equity. >* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage I have heard a lot of people in Europe (UK and Germany) complain about issues with getti…

I guess my point on vacation is more around the culture of using it. As a senior level engineer/architect with maybe a small team leading role, when was the last time you took a solid 2 week off without anyone calling you for work? Heck, look at the number of unlimited PTO companies out there where employees never take a day. Just as an example. The experience my friends have in the EU seems to be pretty good over al…

> Also everyone keeps talking about working for FAANG but.... The vast majority of US engineers don't work for them.

True, but since FAANGs have offices all over the world, employ a ton of people and doing market research for salaries they should offer, it might be a pretty good idea to look at them and compare what they pay per country to see disproportions

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#188

Post by tluyben2 »

johnqpub wrote: post #79
giantg2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the healthcare system isn't a dream from what I hear. The main thing I see with the parent's comment though is that in the US you might be making $100k, but paying $15-20k in insurance costs. Whereas you might only be making $80k in the EU but you don't have that same insurance costs. I see this as being the same cost (ignoring the other factors per the OPs request) but just hiding the cost from the empl…

The thing is in the US, generally the more you make the lower your insurance costs are. I made ~$300k last year at a FAANG (Sr. engineer), and my healthcare costs were: $29/month in premiums $200/month in an HSA, which I'm saving for retirement (complicated US income tax reasons), so money I don't available for my use but it doesn't go into a black hole either. $1500 deducible $3000 total out of pocket I had a sudden…

It takes a bit more structuring but $300k is not impossible. Especially if you have management skills and good communication skills next to solid tech chops.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#189

Post by mrkstu »

messe wrote: post #147
aaomidi wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is not an issue for people immigrating from Europe.

In what way? Unless I've missed something significant the visa options for those emigrating from Europe to the US are limited. What options are there other than the H1B?

Some paths are quota based by country of origin, so getting a green card is exponentially harder for a Chinese or Indian citizen than an Aussie, for instance.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#190

Post by sidlls »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I can understand this for oneself. But to be this complacent/indifferent to your kids' future is just kind of amusing to me.

I haven't got billionaire status ambitions, but I also don't want my elder years to be effectively dictated by the vicissitudes of the political environment.

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