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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#1
It is often mentioned that Software Engineer salaries in Europe are significantly lower compared to US salaries, even adjusting for lower Cost of Living.

The consensus on why that is seems to be: * Individual contributors in Europe are not as valued as much as managerial professions, due to cultural/historical reasons

* Salaries in the US are skewed due to the presence of FAANG companies and VC money, which inflate salaries through the large amount of capital they inject in the system

* Europe has less freedom of enterprise (debatable), is in general more risk averse, and has a less dynamic job market (more difficult to fire lower performers), which results in lower wages to compensate for these factors.

Reasons aside, how can the European tech job market become more competitive?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#3
Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Germany. They do make markedly less than I do on my US salary. However, they also get:

* Substantially more actual vacation time

* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage

* Less risk/stress associated with job security

* A very similar job market

I don't imagine this is the same in every country in the EU, just as technical job markets are different in the US. But working in the US Tech Sector isn't the panacea of work related issues.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#6
post #5

Careful what you wish for. The US has no guaranteed paternity/maternity leave, and the majority of workplaces have less than a month of vacation time. Then there is the healthcare system.

I don't think any of these reasons explain why European SWE salaries are so low and I don't think they need to be compromised in order to raise wages.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#8
I might be biased by personal experience, but I think this has less to do with US regulation vs Europe and more to do with direct competition between tech firms’ equity value, notably late stage private companies and recent IPOs. A recent example is circa FB’s IPO, Google would always try to match or beat the other’s comp. Over the long term, you’re hoping that most of your wealth will have come from equity, not salary, if youre an engineer in SV. Senior engineers earn ~half their comp as equity grants even at public companies. Salary is simply a knob to adjust risk.

Theres an interesting sort of recursion where companies compete with others slightly earlier and slightly later than them, where the more mature company promises less risk (in the form of cash and equity $ value as of the last round raise) compared to the less mature company. This means that e.g. Stripe must offer comparable or higher salaries than a series B or C company, and slightly “less” equity compared to the less mature companies more risky but higher potential equity. So the salary floor is driven by very early upstarts, and companies are pressured as they mature to increase that floor or employees leave to other companies with the same salary but less equity risk.

So, 2 things: early companies must be able to grow (so their equity over the long term outpaces or matches larger companies) and early companies must be able to pay something close to reasonable salary (in SV this is usually ~70% salary of top of market, so 90k from a seed startup vs 130k from a FAANG). Basically, more companies need to be started and access to initial investment is a huge part of that.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#9
There is a reason why Poles, Bulgarians, and Ukrainians are ubiquitous on remote teams in tech: they are cheap, they are hungry for a challenge, and they get gold medals on the IOI (at least the Poles and Bulgarians do).

Dramatically increasing the pay of these people would be doing them a disservice by making them less employable.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#10
Adding more reasons:

Europe as a single entity is problematic, there's a north-south gradient, the cold war east-west divide, and EU/non EU.

* Switching jobs was less common, there used to be loyalty from both sides.

* It's easy to get competent workers from outside of "western" europe with a matching culture and timezone. I've seen a switch from outsourcing to poland(former east) to the ukraine(non EU+east). This is good for the polish guys, they're almost at our level now.

* Residence requirements for people outside of the European continent are low, and on base wage mostly lower than for any other sector.

This makes the wages more internationally competitive from a business perspective, and hooks into "Individual contributors in Europe are not as valued as much as managerial professions" Because you can get the work from somewhere else cheaper.

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