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Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

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Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#161
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of OMSCS? The online revolution is already happening. Many schools are moving to copy the model. I've been in OMSCS for almost 5 years now. I can assuredly say that remote university education works incredibly well. Even better than in person in many respects. Not only that, but I truly believe it is vital to ensuring equal access to high quality education. The current university system with 5% accepta…

Two comments: First, what's OMSCS? Could you supply a bit more detail rather than just "have you heard of it"? What is it? What's good about it? Second, 5% acceptance rates are not typical of "the current university system". That's only a few "elite" schools. 40k/year may be more typical, but you can easily find less than half that.

OMSCS is Georgia Tech's Online CS Master's program[0]. I'm starting my ninth class this term. Here's my take...

Pros:

- video lectures are generally pretty polished, and include animations and other visual aids to help build intuition

- the course material is mostly high quality. this is the same material that on-site graduate students are presented, and the graded projects are challenging.

- there is opportunity to interact with other students and TAs: online message board, video office hours, unofficial Slack, etc.

- flexible enough to schedule around a full-time job

- inexpensive compared to in-person programs (the entire program with 10 courses is $7-$8k)

Cons:

- quality of materials, TAs, and organization can vary from course to course and term to term

- harder to build relationships / network than in-person programs

- it's course-based by default. you can pursue a research-based degree but it's nonstandard.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tech_Online_Master_of_...

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#162
post #14

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

> [...] a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand!

You forgot to mention the most important thing -- the ability to change the playback speed to create the "cognitive load" level engaging for you. This chrome plugin has been a tremendously useful for my learning https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/video-speed-contro... Video speed control during playback is like a impedance-matching transformer between the "bitrate" of the lecturer and the listener.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#163
I see a lot of these conversations recently (big surprise!) and one aspect that really doesn't seem to come up is that content only gets you so far.

There has been quality content "out there" for decades. In-arguably there is more content recently, and it is somewhat more discoverable. But it has always been true that truly effective self directed learners exist but have been thin on the ground.

To abuse a quote from good will hunting (IIRC) - you could have got that education for $3 in library late fees. Why don't more people do this? I think roughly the same problem is at work with MOOC and remote learning. Clearly some few people can get a lot out of it; clearly a lot don't.

I've taught inside and outside of universities; I suspect we still have a pretty poor understanding of what parts are working and why.

Some of the remote learning approaches I see now seem a bit of cargo-culting the existing system and then arguing about whether or not it is working.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#164
How did you learn the type of programming that you use for work?

If you’re anything like me or my kids, you’ve probably learned most of it through docs, forums, in-person mentors, peers, and async coursework. In university, much of the act of learning happens in labs, not lectures.

The main model for education we have in the US is oriented around notions of authority and racial imperialism. The idea that a single learned elite sharing the light of knowledge from chosen tomes, to a lower class that is forced to attend... that dates back to Dark Age mass. The fundamental reality was that books were scarce and widespread literacy was impractical. It becomes an ideal venue for twisting or omitting information; a platform for power.

Our reality is fundamentally different. In a world of information abundance, the ability to source, collect, vet, absorb, and apply information matters. The ability to reject bad information matters greatly. The ability to create meaningful information and expression from that becomes a life’s work.

I want my kids to become compassionate, diligent, and excellent at solving a variety of problems using the resources available to them. I want them to see the breadth of human experience and foment desire to live a rich life.

I’ve come to see that modern public education embraces the authoritarian learning model, where the most compliant and capable students are prepared use by those who control the most capital. It’s a system that has been exploited to promote racial disparity in many forms over the years, and corrupted with pressure by religious groups. It’s the education system that created today’s America.

I pulled my kids out. We’re unscheduled and unschooling. My wife is doing doctoral work and one of my sons wants to go to University of Washington CS program. We’re building an academic and project portfolio and planning to do Running Start, aka free community college for k-12. He build a little social network in PHP in 6th grade and taught himself EE from YouTube. Last year he ordered his first run of 50 PCBs from China for a portable video game console he made from scratch. He can run circles around most adults on world history, geography, and critical think at age 13. Why should asshole teachers get to dictate exactly how he spends 10 hours of his life every day, when he has very different learning needs than most of his classmates?

My other son is creative and has been able to dive deep into his passions while also blazing through Khan math, learning animal husbandry, writing short film scripts, and practicing for being a streamer. There is no better venue to learn public speaking than to have to make a tight video presentation. He’s also kind of a tactical genius and I’m letting him push himself as a gamer, because he’s damn talented.

We tried replicating traditional academics at home and it just didn’t work. It depends on use of force to ensure the learning happens, and takes all of the fun out of it.

We’re meeting state standards for homeschooling in the process and trying to make sure they are not lacking in a particular area, but thankfully our state allows for flexibility in teaching models. They have plenty of social opportunities, clubs, sports, music (outside of pandemic circumstances) with far more meaningful interaction time than your average 3 minutes between class and 15 minute lunch break.

We don’t have to do school shooter drills or say the Pledge of Allegiance, but we still proudly fly an American Flag.

I see the system needing to shift away from authority and analytics, and towards creating healthy, whole humans. The short-term, fickle needs of capital, pervasive veneration of dead white men, or dogma of religious groups should not have any part of that process.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. >> From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. This isnt surprising -- you are probably polling people inside the system -- what about the many more people who cant join the system? I'll bet they have a very different opinion. Th…

Aren't the people inside the system the ones you should be listening to most? You talk about surivivorship bias in university students, but I think it's a lot more likely that the survivorship bias is really, "people who value education". That is, the people currently in traditional university are by and large the majority of the people in whatever hypothetical online next-gen education system you're imagining. I thi…

I respectfully disagree. Lets take a simple case I know of personally -- a family with children.

A remote graduate program with evening classes works for a lot of people. A program where you need to commute into the city, commute back late at night after group meetings, or change cities all-together is just not practical for all but the wealthiest individuals (those who can afford 18hr nannies).

Those who aren't wealthy enough to do that aren't stupid or lazy, they are just lacking wealth.

Consider also that hundreds of millions of people live within un-commuteable distance to a university. They aren't stupid or lazy -- they are just unlucky -- they happened to grow up or settle in a particular area.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#166
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! Ok. That's a win for remote. Now my turn: how easy is it to gauge the mood of your entire class, turn to the person next to you and whisper a question or look at their notes? Go for coffee…

Personally class time in STEM courses has always been a waste for me. If it wasn't required for my degrees, I would just learn everything on my own, pass the tests and complete the assignments. OTOH I also attended a great books discussion based course and there the class time was essential to really dig into the texts. However, even that can be zoomified with a disciplined enough group.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#167

My children are 16, 15, 14. They are all currently homeschooling in UK lockdown number 3. All of their lessons are delivered via video (Google Classrooms). The quality of learning seems low, they seem unengaged and only respond to teacher when absolutely forced to. As a parent all I really do is IT support and discourage distraction (put your phone down etc). In UK lockdown 1 in March there was no video learning. Tas…

I've only been at this for six months now, but what seems to be working for two of my children is to combine parent-student-paired activity (reading/watching course material) and practice exercises (usually solo but sometimes with parent if it is a new subject).

I feel like the paired activity is basically following the apprenticeship model, as I focus on showing them how to get through the material quickly and how to look up supplemental information or follow interesting tangents to keep it interesting.

The practice exercises then are more relaxing for them as they can just tune out to a certain extent and work through problems on their own.

One thing that is funny is that I am absolutely learning as well as we do this. About half of the material we have covered before I don't remember ever learning in high school, and the rest is a good refresher.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#168

The open university in the UK was founded in 1969 and has been offering full distance learning degrees ever since in large numbers of subjects. It uses a mix of professionally produced video content (so usually not just a video of a lecturer standing in front of a blackboard), textbooks, in person or remote small group seminars (you used to phone in, now online video chat), forums, chat groups, personal support by em…

It's worth saying that the OU model partly works because of an economy of scale (a small module for the OU probably has a couple of hundred students, many have thousands).

A huge amount of work is put into making the modules high quality. Modules are written by teams not individuals and there is a specific process with reviewing etc involved which includes modules going through 'developmental testing' where they basically pilot the whole module with students (who I believe do the module for free) before releasing it properly. Having worked at traditional universities, the different in effort involved is orders of magnitude.

The modules generally use the 'flipped classroom' model to some extent. Students have a tutor who supports them and there are tutorials (all online at the moment obviously) and although there is teaching in tutorials, they is an expectation that they support the course content - perhaps explaining key ideas or addressing common misconceptions - rather than being the central means of delivering course content.

Also worth mentioning that the OU has invested hugely over the years into research into what works and doesn't work in terms of remote education and compared with traditional universities where I have worked, teaching is more valued.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#169
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! Ok. That's a win for remote. Now my turn: how easy is it to gauge the mood of your entire class, turn to the person next to you and whisper a question or look at their notes? Go for coffee…

Personally class time in STEM courses has always been a waste for me. If it wasn't required for my degrees, I would just learn everything on my own, pass the tests and complete the assignments. OTOH I also attended a great books discussion based course and there the class time was essential to really dig into the texts. However, even that can be zoomified with a disciplined enough group.

Yeah, I'd be happy with a self study model where I could also ask occasional questions of a teaching assistant or better-informed peer, ideally over a voice connection so the latency between questions is minimized. Most online teaching models lack this but could benefit greatly from adding just a little rapid give-and-take to resolve the inevitable obstruction.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#170
For most parts, we can't. At least not for grade school, less of a problem for college.

In France, they initially started to close schools, but for the second wave lockdown, they didn't. And now that cases are on the rise again and a third lockdown is being considered, the authorities are pretty clear: schools are the last thing that they will consider closing.

At school, kids are really taking the rules seriously, much more than adults: masks, hands washing, etc... no problem. Social distancing is a bit trickier but still, they do their best to do as they are told. One reason they are so docile: they really don't want another lockdown with school closure!

School is not just about learning stuff. It is a social hub for kids. Most of us here are probably lucky enough to have a good family, but for some, it is the only place where people actually care about them. It also teaches kids to be good citizens, respect authority, etc..., which is most important when parents don't do it.

That's not really answering the question, but my recommendation would be: try to get your kids to school for real, taking as many precautions as necessary. Kids are low risk for covid, are not that good spreaders and they won't get their lockdown time back. I think that small risk is worth it.

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