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If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

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Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#311
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the words just fine. It's the motivation I find incomprehensible. In particular: > If you go on vacation [...] Often your only option is to declare chat room bankruptcy which means missing out on important discussions and big decisions. So what? That's what vacations are for. The whole point is to miss things. It's good for both the person and the organization to miss things. "The graveyards are full of…

>> If you go on vacation [...] Often your only option >> is to declare chat room bankruptcy which means missing >> out on important discussions and big decisions. > That's what vacations are for. The whole point is to > miss things. That may be an effect of vacations, but that is not their driving purpose , which may be: to get away, recharge, do something different, travel (remember when that was a thing?), visit fr…

No, the purpose is to give people time to do what they think best. For them to no longer have the demands of the organization paramount. That is, to miss things.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mailing lists are not heavily used outside of free software. In the corporate world I’ve never had a project provide a mailing list to be used for discussions.

Tools exist even if you don't use them. Many companies use Outlook groups. Those are mailing lists.

Not in the sense that they’re searchable / archived on a listserv.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#313

I disagree with this article. This is what was said about GMail when it first came out - you need folders, without folders you can't keep organized, etc. Turns out indexing and mechanisms to make use of that indexing (labels, advanced sorts, filters) work better than folders. Persistent chat that can be labelled, indexed, searched and filtered is amazing for work related chats, or any chat that becomes part of a long…

I don't know about that. There are a few large differences between chat and email, so it's not a great comparison. 1) length -- most emails are significantly longer than any single chat message 2) context -- email threads are saved (and indexed) in the context of their thread. With chat, you really don't get ether, so it's significantly more difficult. You can never really know what a message is a reply to. Responses…

These are great points, though I disagree with all of them as reasons to prefer email over chat.

> 1) length -- most emails are significantly longer than any single chat message

Agreed. The beauty of a chat, rather than an email thread, is that each message contains (or should) a single point. Which means the chat thread is more of a sequence of the following kinds of responses: Yes, and; Yes, but; No, and further; No, but. This makes for a better conversation, and makes it easier to process. How many times have you asked two questions in an email, only to have someone respond to just the last one?

>2) context -- email threads are saved (and indexed) in the context of their thread. >With chat, you really don't get ether, so it's significantly more difficult. You can never really know what a message is a reply to...

This is a matter of implementation, not technical capability. A decent context is achieved through proper use of tags and chronological ordering. Better threading can be achieved through a protocol implementation of a reply-id capability, which most chat systems have (XMPP, Discord, etc.), coupled with GUI presentation of messages in a threaded view.

>...Responses can come fast or slow... True of any asynchronous channel, email or chat.

>Individual channels can have multiple conversations happening, if not simultaneously, then at least over time.

I see this as a feature, not a bug. With tagging a chat message can be part of several different conversations at the same time, even across channels. Which conversation you are presented with depends on which tag you are viewing.

>I mean, that's the difficulty with any system... getting people to use it. If your team can be disciplined about the tags, then I'm glad that works for you. I not sure it would work well in many other contexts.

In my experience, this is often the biggest hurdle in implementing any revolutionary system (as opposed to evolutionary) that makes a big change in how people do things. For messaging, there are systems with a reminder feature similar to most email client's behavior when there's no subject. For instance, "This message has no tags. Messages are required to have at least one tag, and should have between 2 and 7".

You need management to force the issue though. An approach I've used in the past is to find a competitor or two using the technology, and use business/financial FOMO as a motivator.

Also, if you do a typo in an email..it's there forever. A typo in a chat can be fixed in many systems.

In a desire to be fair, I will add two reasons to use email:

1) If you are doing CYA. Email can't be changed, and is routed through a number of servers, possibly leaving log fingerprints. Email also has bcc. Anything that is important you can bcc to a second friendly party to prove you sent it, or to a personal email account (do this with trade secrets, or heaven forbid - classified - and you should get what you deserve, and I don't mean in a good way). If you want a paper trail, don't use chat.

2) If you are sending a document. Most businesses have virus scanners built into their email server software. A document is typically sent, retrieved, and saved somewhere. Though, if a document will be referenced often by many, neither chat nor email are best. Use a wiki, or something similar.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#314
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Email isn't searchable by people who weren't on the threads. In an org that uses IM well (they exist!) the chat system actually becomes sort of like a wiki, except a lot more helpful.

>the chat system actually becomes sort of like a wiki That sounds horrible and very fragile.

Absolutely, it is. It's still miles above every single corporate wiki I've tried to use. Your milage may vary.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anything in particular you don't like about Zulip?

The UI looks a bit outdated, but it's so fast and usable that I don't mind the aesthetics at all. It had some annoyances like the inability to move topics, bit AFAIK they solved that with the latest release. There isn't really much else I don't like about it, I never stop being amazed by how great the keyboard navigation is and how much the "river" of messages improves usability.

Thanks for the reply!

I'm intrigued by the Guest option. Do you think it's a good way to communicate with the clients during longer projects?

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI looks a bit outdated, but it's so fast and usable that I don't mind the aesthetics at all. It had some annoyances like the inability to move topics, bit AFAIK they solved that with the latest release. There isn't really much else I don't like about it, I never stop being amazed by how great the keyboard navigation is and how much the "river" of messages improves usability.

Thanks for the reply! I'm intrigued by the Guest option. Do you think it's a good way to communicate with the clients during longer projects?

Yeah, I've used that and it worked well (though I haven't used it extensively). As long as clients don't get confused by the UI, it's great, but it might take a bit of onboarding due to the different UI (though in its core it's just "Slack, but everything is a message thread").

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#317

The problem with "trying it with my team for one sprint" is that I now need to have a long conversation with legal. How will the service provider handle the content (discussions, screenshots, code snippets) that my team will upload? Do our current customer contracts contain any clauses that complicate the use of external discussion sites? In the unlikely event that the service offers the option to host it locally --…

> just fucking use email. I get you. But also: - Email doesn't retain context very well. If I dig back through my email I might have all of the emails in a thread, or maybe not. - Likewise, I can't send someone a link to a previous emailed conversation so it makes for poor documentation. I can forward an individual email, but not the comment in context. - Email is not easy to index or post up for reference. You can't…

We have IMAP URLs that address some of this.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#318
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why at my org, slack is one of the de-facto sources of truth. And it's awesome. I can often find the solution to a specific, niche problem that someone else discussed 4 years ago in a few seconds. Assuming your org pays for whatever it is that allows full archival, it's a great way to capture org-specific, tribal knowledge that you won't find on google, but that nobody will take the time to add to an…

In a few seconds? Wow. I'm a very fast reader and probably need at least 15 seconds to wade through a busy Stack Overflow page. I've found that Slack's discoverability is severely limited because it seems to prioritize low-effort input. Here's what I mean: in a busy channel, Slack makes it so easy to reply in a linear chain. Unrelated messages get interleaved. Following a train of discussion can be difficult. In cont…

cmd+k > copy and paste error message > (few seconds pass) > results appear in slack search

I do this all the time at work. I didn't say that I can expand and read through all the results in a few seconds, that part takes time. But comparing that to something like teams, which would often freeze for me when going back in a convo history, let alone something like asking people individually, slack has been great for finding internal knowledge.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#319
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If you go on vacation [...] Often your only option >> is to declare chat room bankruptcy which means missing >> out on important discussions and big decisions. > That's what vacations are for. The whole point is to > miss things. That may be an effect of vacations, but that is not their driving purpose , which may be: to get away, recharge, do something different, travel (remember when that was a thing?), visit fr…

>> That's what vacations are for. The whole point is to miss things. > That may be an effect of vacations, but that is not their driving purpose That all depends. A confucian official was apparently required to take a two year mourning period following the death of his father. I have read the theory that one purpose this practice may have served (intentionally or not) was ensuring that no one could usurp too much pow…

You're definitely correct about bank employees. I know people who've been required to take vacations as a matter of policy, and fraud prevention is how they explained it.

Re: If it will matter after today, don't talk about it in a chat room

#320

I have always thought that Slack is designed to make information go away, and that's why people like it. Email never goes away unless you archive the thread. If you have a bunch of things that are going on, you open your inbox and realize just how behind you are, every time you open it. Slack, conversely, scrolls up and always looks the same. If you miss something, the world moved on without your input, and you feel…

My experience with Slack is the opposite. Scanning through my list of channels, I'll see some channel I don't recognize, and it will still be pinned at the top unread message 4 months ago when someone added me for some reason.
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