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Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

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Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#151

Post by bretthoerner »

mattmanser wrote: post #114
bretthoerner wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this is HN, there's a pretty good chance you're an Engineer of some kind. Where are you (or what do you do?) that companies can get away with this?

This is the norm in the UK, companies close over the holidays and there are mandatory holidays that go with that. Being clear about this with new (and especially young) employees is a good idea as to people straight out of college, it's not obvious. But there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.

Mandatory closing are one thing. Hell, I'd like to have the holidays off anyway.

But it's 50% of his total time off. Is that "the norm"?

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#152

Post by adestefan »

matwood wrote: post #67

I get 3 paid weeks of vacation per year. More would be nice, but unless I'm going to do something (spend a month in Europe for example) I get tired of being on vacation after a week or so. Also, when it comes to single days here and there my boss just tells me to take them. His way of hoping I pick up the phone on a Saturday when something breaks I guess :) I recently travelled to to the UK and France for 16 days and…

The thing about vacation time is remember to have enough to use for things other than a long vacation. I'll use a week of time for the Friday after Thanksgiving and some time around Christmas/New Years.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#153

Post by whyleyc »

mattmanser wrote: post #114
bretthoerner wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this is HN, there's a pretty good chance you're an Engineer of some kind. Where are you (or what do you do?) that companies can get away with this?

This is the norm in the UK, companies close over the holidays and there are mandatory holidays that go with that. Being clear about this with new (and especially young) employees is a good idea as to people straight out of college, it's not obvious. But there's certainly nothing dodgy about it.

Not at any UK company I've worked at (1 corporation, 1 retailer, 1 startup).

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#154

Post by silversmith »

karolist wrote: post #106
silversmith wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latvia chiming in here: Mid-june till september off for schools. July and august off for college students. One week prior to christmas and one week some time around easter off for both. Four weeks paid yearly vacation for the 9-to-5ers. Two weeks additional paid vacation for working students finishing their graduation works. National holidays and sickness don't count towards your vacation time. If a national holiday…

Same in Lithuania actually. But.. 9-5ers? Do you really have 35 hour work week as opposed to 40 ( (17-9-1h lunch) * 5) or was it just digested for the American reader?

Digested. Was musing a long time - 'the workers'? 'the drones'? 'blue collars'? In the end, settled on the best non-offensive term my limited vocabulary could come up with :)

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#155

Post by colomon »

wheels wrote: post #141

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6. That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much money. For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spen…

That's what's so surreal about this entire discussion. "I have 7 weeks paid vacation!" as if employers were paying them for 52 weeks' work and then were shocked every year to discover that they only get 45 weeks of work.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#156

Post by geebee »

brown9-2 wrote: post #132
geebee wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done this, though I didn't realize what I was doing at the time. I was working for Sun Microsystems, which gave me two weeks of vacation time. Sun was doing a forced shutdown over the week of the 4th of July, which burned 4 days, and then there was the inevitable "shutdown" over christmas break, which burned another three days. This left me with 3 days of "elective" vacation time. A wedding took care of those. I…

Until today I have never heard of a US company forcing employee's to use "forced shutdown" days - which I'm interpreting to mean the company telling people they have off on a certain day - as vacation days, and this is the second time (at least) it's been mentioned in this thread. How common is this exactly? Because this sounds like a company that is really, really screwing it's employees.

It's pretty common, actually. They do it for the reasons awa pointed out, as well as to reduce the debt burden for the compan. IANAC [1], but I believe this has something to do with unused vacation leave being charged as outstanding debt. It's also a way of saving money by shutting down operations at a time when less gets done anyway.

Sun, like most companies, did give the option of taking the leave without pay and preserving your vacation time.

Maybe that's one option for US companies - pay for two weeks of vacation time, but culturally allow up to six without pay. Then we'd actually be somewhat more like European countries, but with an option - reduce your salary if you'd like more vacation, but keep working and make more money if that's more your style.

I doubt I'll see this happen - first, "leave without pay" is unusual in the US, typically done medical conditions where the employee wants to return to the job, but will be forced to leave for long periods of time (pregnancy leave is often handled this way). Another problem is that it may actually be inefficient - it would create a financial incentive to take minimum vacation time, and a lot of people believe, with some evidence, that workers are less productive this way.

[1] IANAAC: I am not an accountant ;)

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#157

Post by protomyth »

brown9-2 wrote: post #132
geebee wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done this, though I didn't realize what I was doing at the time. I was working for Sun Microsystems, which gave me two weeks of vacation time. Sun was doing a forced shutdown over the week of the 4th of July, which burned 4 days, and then there was the inevitable "shutdown" over christmas break, which burned another three days. This left me with 3 days of "elective" vacation time. A wedding took care of those. I…

Until today I have never heard of a US company forcing employee's to use "forced shutdown" days - which I'm interpreting to mean the company telling people they have off on a certain day - as vacation days, and this is the second time (at least) it's been mentioned in this thread. How common is this exactly? Because this sounds like a company that is really, really screwing it's employees.

I've been at a company where even normal holidays (Christmas) were considered vacation (forced for non-scheduled personal - i.e. most IT). They were also one of those companies that combined sick leave and vacation. They really didn't give enough days to compensate (starting people really only had about a week and a half of vacation if they didn't get sick / stuck in hospital).

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#158

Post by wccrawford »

lurker20 wrote: post #93
wccrawford wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, that's the first I've ever heard of that. That would not be acceptable for me. I think I'll be asking for more vacation time in future contracts, too. I managed to secure extra in the first year of my current contract because I had a need (planned trip) but in the future, I'm just going to require more. Of course, benefits and pay are interchangeable, so I might just request the ability to take unpaid vacatio…

Sort of. The difference is that some benefits are linked to length-of-service or continuity-of-service, so an unpaid vacation in the USA can scuttle your health insurance, equity vest, 401(k) match, etc.

Please cite that. That could be very important, but I've never heard of such a thing before.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#159

Post by cmurdock »

enjo wrote: post #136
k3dz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can do that only if you are a senior dev.. what do junior devs, recent college grads do?

There is no point in your life that you can more easily take 3 months off to do whatever you want than when you are a "recent college grad". My biggest life regret was not realizing this at the time. I jumped into the workforce and pursued my career at 95 mph. I should have spent a year travelling.

Unless you have college loans that you start paying on immediately after leaving college... which is bordering on most people these days.

Re: Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

#160

Post by mikeleeorg »

Out of curiosity, anyone know if sabbaticals common in Europe?

A software developer I know worked tirelessly for 4 years at a large corporation before burning out. He may have taken a week off here & there, but was always answering his emails.

He finally requested a sabbatical. Those are rare and very tough to get, but his manager fought for him and off he went. He returned refreshed, though he left the job shortly thereafter (which is a major reason why that company made it tough to request a sabbatical).

I'm just curious if the same kind of phenomenon occurs in Europe.

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