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Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

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Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#121

Post by dorchadas »

prohobo wrote: post #6

Sorry, I don't have an answer but this is an interesting problem. For one, kids haven't been taught to teach themselves - and most kids aren't interested in learning anyways because they don't see any incentive. Schooling has traditionally used social pressure and a present authority figure to ensure students actually participate. Online, both of those are basically gone. Technically, there's actually potential benef…

3 is the key step. It's the issue the school I work at has seen. Most of our students don't see any reason to learn and so they do none of the activities, even when they know their grade depends on it. Unless you can fix that problem, which is a cultural problem, then remote education can never replace in-person education. In-person education works around it as the teacher is there to force them to be accountable and at least attempt to learn.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#122

Post by bitstan »

randomsearch wrote: post #87
slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! Ok. That's a win for remote. Now my turn: how easy is it to gauge the mood of your entire class, turn to the person next to you and whisper a question or look at their notes? Go for coffee…

I think when VR technology improves a bit more it'll be the superior learning experience.

Imagine learning history interactively. Don't just read about Julius Caesar being stabbed, why not stab him yourself?

You could explore physics in a sandbox environment. Learn geography by going there. Practice theater by performing.

Grabbing a cup of coffee is fun but so is hopping into a game of virtual paintball.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#123

Post by AnimalMuppet »

There's two completely different problems.

1. Someone who is motivated, and who has the talent and/or background to be able to grasp the material. How do we prove that they learned it? How do we prove it in a way that a credential-driven society will accept? (Especially, how do we do it for a fully online college degree?)

2. Someone who is not motivated, or who does not have the tools to grasp the material. How do we detect that they're floundering or giving up? How do we keep them from falling through the cracks?

Those are two completely different problems. I could see solving the first one with testing - you pass the test, you pass the class. The problem is getting society to accept the credential as meaning the same as an in-person class or degree. Western Governors University uses this approach; I don't know whether or not the outside world views their degrees as "real" degrees.

To my way of thinking, the second problem is harder. You can't solve it with technology. You need human intervention, preferably from humans that the student has a connection to, and that are talented enough in teaching to know how to help. I have no clue how to handle that remotely. If the parents aren't those people, then... what?

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#124

Post by UncleMeat »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #50
UncleMeat wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My kids are twice exceptional. This is probably the hardest educational profile to try to effectively educate. This is probably true if you want to educate them to their maximum potential. But the wiggle room for ineffectiveness is enormous. If you have kids that are incredibly smart then you get a natural buffer. The challenge is that we sure would like everybody to be able to read and write at a high school level…

It's really a lot more complicated than that. If you have someone strong in science but weak in math, their math disability can actively block their ability to learn their favorite subject. But I really shouldn't ever bother to discuss this on HN. The only person who knew me before I joined HN knew me through homeschooling and gifted circles and never once said anything nice about me, just politely nitpicked my comme…

Huh? I think you likely did a great job raising your children. Nothing in my post was intended as an attack on you (or women or mothers or homeschoolers).

In general, I find that this community is extremely receptive to nontraditional education methods. My concern was largely in what I saw as a priority mismatch when considering individual examples vs population-scale policy.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#125

Post by 1auralynn »

TuringNYC wrote: post #56
impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

>> I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. >> From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. This isnt surprising -- you are probably polling people inside the system -- what about the many more people who cant join the system? I'll bet they have a very different opinion. Th…

I think this is correct. Students who thrive in a lecture environment make it to Universities. Professors who are fantastic lecturers get jobs at Universities.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#126

Post by qmmmur »

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

My biggest realisation was seeing students undergo a realisation that the information is the least important bit about university. Now that its all so digestible, repeatable theyve either realised theyre not that talented/important/capable and that a lot of what makes a successful graduate is personal skills, applying themselves, being strategic and attitude.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#127

Post by watwut »

slykar wrote: post #14
impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

> Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option.

Purely online courses have large failure rates - even when students pay and are comparable to in person ones. For whatever reason, people do better in person course and do badly in online ones.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#128

Post by AnimalMuppet »

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

What is your take on "inverted" classrooms?

My perspective from talking to younger people (I haven't been a student for decades) is that traditional classrooms were better for some learning styles than others. Inverted classrooms are better for some students that had trouble with the normal approach, but are worse for students who thrived under the normal approach. It's not a clear net win in terms of "helping more people".

But that's my experience from talking to a very small sample. Do you have an opinion?

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#129

Post by watwut »

atmosx wrote: post #94
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some material is better taught in an async fashion. Based on the experience of teaching this semester by multiple colleagues, the problem, of course, is that students will not consume that material at all. If you try to do short quizzes to ensure they watched it, they will cheat, or just take the grade penalty. The problem with online is that the the modicum of shame present in offline classes that forces them to p…

If we're going to base our educational system in shaming and pushing "knowledge" down the throat of uninterested group of ppl, then we might want to start asking "why are these ppl uninterested?" and "how we can change that?", "why uninterested parties in X took the subject", etc.

You can be generally interested in subject and still not be in mood to pay attention this week. It is completely normal for humans to have ups and downs in motivation or to find some part of material more interesting then others. Or to be tired because you stayed too late last night. It is also completely normal for humans to be disorganized or procastinate.

School system that assumes that everyone is perfectly motivated, organized and disciplined at all times will fail a lot.

Second, many people are motivated by social contact with other people who do the same thing. By both competition and mutual help. That is again quite normal for humans and these people will find watching videos more boring.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#130

Post by tenacious_tuna »

dorchadas wrote: post #113
tenacious_tuna wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm personally appalled that instead of leaning hard into a "flipped classroom model" by having kids watch (or read!) lectures on material on their own, and then working in small groups with their teacher, the US public school system has instead doubled-down on just retrofitting the classroom environment into remote hell. As a developer it's difficult enough trying to remain engaged on any remote meeting with more th…

So I'm a secondary school teacher, and I have tried this. Several times, with several classes (math and introductory chemistry/physics). The issue is the kids think of it as not having any work. So they do nothing while at home, which then means I end up having to teach the content anyway. It just doesn't work because the kids are responsible and refuse to do stuff at home, meaning I have to teach what they should've…

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you think it would be effective to segregate students by ability and/or motivation? That way you could let the motivated/interested/whatever students self-direct, and otherwise more efficiently spend your time with those who aren't self-motivated?
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