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Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

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Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#21

Post by LockAndLol »

qsort wrote: post #8

If remote or partially remote education is to become the default, you have to scrap the teacher-students-classroom model; it hardly works in real life and it's even worse when not happening in a physical space. Moving to a fully asynchronous model is the only way you can maintain any semblance of educational standards. Put content online, have the students access it at their own leisure. Use the saved time to arrange…

I think the model you're describing is the flipped classroom [1]. If all course materials are put online and lessons consist of requiring pupils to prepare by using the materials and whatever else they can get elsewhere, it might actually increase engagement. Probably doubly so if all of the information learned is used for projects or goals e.g by the end of this year, you will understand how a CRT works and have to provide all the requirements needed to build one with the following characteristics: X nits, Y colors, Z resolution, etc.

Similar things could be done with art, music, maths and more.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#22

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

Different people have different modes of learning, so the key is to listen to the user and ask questions in order to surface the modes they need.

I grew up self-teaching myself because teachers refused to try new ways to teach me. If they tried to help me out, it would not help at all, because they didn't know how to use different perspectives or modes. I suggested several times that I would be more engaged if I could find an interesting way to engage with the material. I liked history, and problem solving. But much of the time, the only method the teachers would use was rote memorization or some formula which didn't make sense. There wasn't context or a story, just abstract concepts, and no visual clues, hierarchies, etc.

If somebody had listened to me and basically captured my user story and feedback, perhaps they could have found similar situations and developed a couple different structures for organizing and presenting the material. Or maybe I'm just weird.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#23

Post by bachmeier »

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

US university professor too. I agree with this:

> Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen.

There's no substitute for in-person education. For years, I heard from the online education cheerleaders that online can be better. Online can be a quality experience, but you can't build the same relationships, develop the same comfort with asking questions, or deliver the same set of intangibles in an online setting.

That said, I think hybrid classes are probably better. Some material is better taught in an async fashion. The big limitation of in-person education is that you have no choice but to schedule a fixed block of time for meetings. The flexibility of async means students can go through certain types of material at the right pace for themselves.

> it seems that startups like edX, Coursera, etc. have not really been successes

These options aren't university classes. They're the next generation of textbooks.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#24

Post by neilshevlin »

For the technical subjects, I haven't managed find a program more comprehensive as brilliant.org. It covers a great deal of the technical subjects to perhaps most of the undergraduate level of understanding.

I then supplement a course like brilliant, with udemy courses, guided project courses and then finally in to unguided personal projects. I can pass my CS exams, work full time, and not have to ever attend a lecture.

I only really decided to go to university to meet cool people and go to parties. There was a legitimate decision whether it was really worth it. Thankfully I live in a country where education is essentially affordable for a student, so I didn't stand to lose much.

My university has practically one of the biggest, most comprehensive libraries in the world. However, being an undergraduate, they don't actually allow me to borrow most of them, but a small sliver of 'undergraduate appropriate' books. But it's still extremely nice to be able to grab any book, free of charge and do some research. -> This is one of the main reasons I want to hang around in university.

Access to workshops, and labs is nearly always restricted to the people in the appropriate subjects. So I cant actually build anything physical, unless I belong to some mechanical engineering course. Figuring out a way to get around that would also be very nice for the future education system.

The tutor system in Oxford, Cambridge if it could be scaled, would be the final nail in the coffin for the traditional university. If I could get access to a person who is more knowledgable than me in a subject to help me understand what I don't know and give me pointers on what I probably need to learn would save me countless hours of just trying to know what I don't know.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#25

Post by bachmeier »

slykar wrote: post #14
impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

You need to find a new university. If your courses are "Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters" then your professor is incompetent or lazy.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#26

Post by Kinrany »

onion2k wrote: post #19
slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by point and if you do not understand something, tough luck, the professor has already moved to the next exercise. People shouldn't just accept this sort of thing as normal. You're paying (in the US or UK anyway) a lot of money for a degree level education. That means it needs to be fit for purpose, and if you're not learn…

> Learning to stand up for yourself and ask for what you need is a big part of the university experience.

You're not graded on standing up for yourself.

In this area universities are not different from standing in line or negotiating a job offer.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#27

Post by gibspaulding »

iso1210 wrote: post #11

At one end of the scale, the work set on monday this week for my kids (elementary school age) was done in 50 minutes for one, and 30 minutes for the other. On the other hand other parents are saying there is too much work to do. My wife is a teacher in a bad school, the worst kids this year are over 2 years behind where they should be. Perhaps the problem is that people learn and work at different rates, and homeshco…

> At one end of the scale, the work set on monday this week for my kids (elementary school age) was done in 50 minutes for one, and 30 minutes for the other.

> On the other hand other parents are saying there is too much work to do.

High School CS teacher here. I definitely relate to this. Even when we were in person, I had students who could finish a project in 20 minutes, and others who would take two or three class periods.

Working remotely seems to exacerbate this difference. The students finishing in 20 mins still finish in 20 minutes, but the ones who took days before are often the same students who never reach out for help, and in many occasions don't even attend virtual meetings.

Now I definitely have room for improvement as far as keeping on students and parents to get things done, but it's also just a lot harder to hold someone responsible for their work when you aren't looking over their shoulder every day.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#28

Post by anewaccount2021 »

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

Exactly. For k-12 this year will be the end of lockdown.edu. Parents will go into revolt otherwise. The government can't afford a scenario that pits working parents against the primary target cohort of covid (old and obese) because the electoral prospects are frightening. Stay-at-home schools means stay-at-home parents and the implications of eighteen more months of income-by-stimulus isn't on anyone's radar

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#29

Post by toshk »

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

I feel like the biggest value is a hybrid version: the standard curriculum online and smaller classes offline.

The large group lectures I've always felt were a waste of time. The lecturers just explain what's in the book anyway and most of them, except for a few natural talents, are boring as hell. And I always felt I read faster then they speak.

Most university lecturers hardly get educated in how to teach, and most of them also don't care, the consider it the duty of the student to pay attention. A lot of time and money could be saved to move many of the standard curriculum to a online video / textbook course.

I feel like the true value is in the smaller work groups where one gets direct feedback on your work. This is something that the online universities are not able to recreate. And of course making friends, discussing, building a network, having time to think, sports, hanging out.

So a hybrid might improve the quality of the courses while giving a chance to optimize the offline experience.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#30

Post by slykar »

onion2k wrote: post #19
slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by point and if you do not understand something, tough luck, the professor has already moved to the next exercise. People shouldn't just accept this sort of thing as normal. You're paying (in the US or UK anyway) a lot of money for a degree level education. That means it needs to be fit for purpose, and if you're not learn…

Education is "free" (paid by taxes) where I come from (Poland). Private universities are not very popular.

> People shouldn't just accept this sort of thing as normal

It's not "normal", but it's the norm. It's not the fault of the professors, because the truth is they should not teach in the first place, but the education system requires them to.

> make a complaint to the course leader that the lecturer isn't teaching you well enough.

There's no such thing here as the course leader. Most of the time you have a prof. responsible for the theory and another one for the practice.

You can complain to the dean (what multiple students did), but there's no replacement or no one cares.

I don't want to put any blame on the teachers here. I see this as a systemic issue.

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