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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the fidelity is not that good, when just sampling arbitrary vibrating objects. For example a simple accelerometer attached to the center of a lamp shade might create an intelligible signal, but one attached to a heavy table might not. Remember, AI can build speech from a very noisy signal, however. To pick up a better signal you need either a large flat or concave object (like even a computer case), or else so…

Why not? You can't hide microcode or MEMS IMU elements or analog circuitry in a way that decapping and examination by experts cannot uncover. This very article shows acid etching the epoxy packages to inspect the die. There are experts like Ken Shirriff (kens on HN) who reverse engineer silicon devices at the transistor level. How do you arrive at the conclusion that microcode or software cannot be detected even by e…

Sure given enough time to study chips and microcode it can be reverse engineered. Despite my degree in M.E. I've been a software developer for 30 yrs. :) So I know you're right.

I was just saying it's a practical impossibility for even an electronics expert and even after disassembling something, to detect if a device had been recording or not, just by examining the device physically.

Once you start reverse engineering the code itself you're likely to find any hidden surveillance, but even then not guaranteed, because sufficiently obfuscated code can camouflage what it's true purpose was.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#242
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think that he'd be better at interpreting IC markings by now, though.... Part 1 is not "ICFJ", it's "CFJ". The line is the pin 1 marking. This one is the harder of the two; however, if you've been doing this a while, you'd recognize this SOT23-5 as coming from TI, whose online marking code lookup returns "SN74LVC1G14DCK" in just a few seconds. (Incidentally, that means the actual marking is "CF" with a lot/date…

You seem to know what's going on, do you mind answering a question about the schematic? If the transistor is a PMOS like the author says, when the output of the NAND goes low wouldn't both the LED and the transistor turn on? The way the LED is drawn it should turn on when the NAND output is sinking current, right? Maybe the LED is drawn upside down? Or am I misreading/misunderstanding something really simple?

It's not clear what's going on with the LED in the article's schematic, because only one side of it is connected. Depending on how the other side is tied off -- you can tie it to VDD or to ground -- you can get "lit high" or "lit low" behavior out of it. (And, of course, the polarity might be reversed. LEDs are notorious industry-wide for having confusing polarity markings. So never, ever assume a LED is the right way around....) That's because this NAND gate is quite good at either sinking or sourcing current: 24 mA either way (at 3.3V). Older designs are not so balanced, or capable of so much current. (The LVC family is often chosen for exactly this reason.)

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Japan too, bottom-up is the standard pattern. Japanese people can learn to use BLUF, but it's very much not the culturally expected approach.

It makes sense if you're telling a story, and that I understand. But when you're trying to make a point, I feel like it's more respectful of people's time to get to the point; if they want details they can read on. How does that fit with the culturally expected approach in Japan? If you're sharing a revelation, is it still normal to build up rather than start with the answer?

>> you're trying to make a point I here this is the root of the divergence.

YOU are not trying to make a point. If a point is there, your role is only to help to reveal it.

In other words, it should be in balance and objective.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense if you're telling a story, and that I understand. But when you're trying to make a point, I feel like it's more respectful of people's time to get to the point; if they want details they can read on. How does that fit with the culturally expected approach in Japan? If you're sharing a revelation, is it still normal to build up rather than start with the answer?

>> you're trying to make a point I here this is the root of the divergence. YOU are not trying to make a point. If a point is there, your role is only to help to reveal it. In other words, it should be in balance and objective.

It's too late to edit. The first line should be split between your comment and my reply.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

> I don’t think they would throw that away to fool us all into believing a fake mute button - for what? True, but what is the incentive for Amazon to behave given their dominant market position? Customers might not have viable alternatives.

They don't have a huge market lead if at all (i've seen conflicting reports) and there are 3rd party Alexa products that compete indirectly. Considering how many new devices they churn out and how cheap they are to replace, probs good to maintain public opinion for years

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#246
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to know what's going on, do you mind answering a question about the schematic? If the transistor is a PMOS like the author says, when the output of the NAND goes low wouldn't both the LED and the transistor turn on? The way the LED is drawn it should turn on when the NAND output is sinking current, right? Maybe the LED is drawn upside down? Or am I misreading/misunderstanding something really simple?

It's not clear what's going on with the LED in the article's schematic, because only one side of it is connected. Depending on how the other side is tied off -- you can tie it to VDD or to ground -- you can get "lit high" or "lit low" behavior out of it. (And, of course, the polarity might be reversed. LEDs are notorious industry-wide for having confusing polarity markings. So never, ever assume a LED is the right wa…

Thank you, that clears things up.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#248
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. It's why it's so important for laptops to permit a physical slider to block the integrated camera. It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images. The real problem is that we don't have something analogous for microphones. The best we could do is some kind of humming device that you could turn on near the sensor that would drown out any noises it might otherwise pick up…

> It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images. It is definitely not low cost . In the hardware business, we count pennies. We count fractions of pennies with the costs of various components. A shutter means at least one extra mechanical part, and a more complicated housing and increased assembly time at the factory. You might look at a piece of plastic and think it is only…

I would consider it a non-standard usage of "low cost" to apply it to case of something that provides an important function for 1/1000th of the cost of the product.

In any case, I don't think that's relevant to my point: I specifically said "important for laptops to permit a physical slider to block the integrated camera". That phrasing was deliberate: you don't want to trust the OEM's slider in the first place, just be able to add you own.

So, am I addressing a strawman? What OEM impedes you from adding a slider? Well, actually, Apple says it's not recommended to use a webcam cover because of how they designed it. That is poor design and security practice.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23795163

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#249
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes you check whether the mute light is active on a fairly regular basis. If you just turn it off and don't check on it, the light is pretty much useless as an indicator.

The boot up sequence does an audible musical tone and says "Hello", so an attacker is not silently going to reboot it and listen in

If you know everyone in the house is absent during working hours (a reasonable assumption) or that your target has children and they need to pick them up from school at a certain time, just reboot it during that window. Eventually they will forget to check that the microphone is still off when they get home (if they ever check in the first place).
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