Earlier quoted context omitted.
iptables don't let you know when a particular program tries to access an outside host and choose whether you want to allow that. Speaking of a desktop (not a server) firewall I'm rarely even interested which host/port/whatever is a connection about. What matters to me is what app initiated it (if it's initiated from outside my PC it should be always blocked). Iptables used to expose a field attributing a connection t…
> iptables don't let you know when a particular program tries to access an outside host and choose whether you want to allow that. How does this model work for commonly used programs like curl? Do you block it and can't use it at all in your shell scripts, or do you whitelist it and hope that nefarious programs don't use it to exfiltrate data?
Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
131–140 of 158 posts
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
The services which are exempted either don't access personal data or only do so when you enable a service like iCloud Photos. If you don't trust Apple to not access data when the corresponding service is not enabled, your choices are to not use their OS or not use their OS — a tool like this can trivially be bypassed by anyone who controls the kernel.
Its a firewall, it either works or it doesn't. If you don't allow me to block your services, then your firewall simply doesn't work.
defaults read /System/Library/Frameworks/NetworkExtension.framework/Resources/Info.plist ContentFilterExclusionList
That list breaks down into two categories: things which you can't safely be on the Internet without (e.g. security updates) and things which aren't enabled unless you enable them (iMessage, Photos, Music, Find My Mac, etc.) and load some kind of data you care about into them.
In the former case, your options are to enable it or switch to a different operating system — you may choose to schedule them but there's no good security policy where you don't install updates promptly.
In the latter case, people come up with these hypothetical scenarios where someone finds a way to, say, enable iCloud music or photos without your knowledge and then do … something … sketchy with it. The problem with this line of thinking is that if you use those services, you can't firewall them and if you don't you're trying to come up with a scenario where someone can start a service, login using MFA and deleting the notification emails, load your data without prompting, but somehow doesn't already have control of your system or an easier way to exfiltrate your data.
The person I replied to had an even sillier version: “Access to our personal data by Apple - intentionally or "accidently"”. That asks us to believe that there's some way Apple would want to access your data, deploy some kind of attack code which bypasses all of the prompts for each stage, but forget to, say, simply disable the firewall entirely or exfiltrate data through a hostname used for other purposes (such as the software update CDN). It's technically possible but it's so farfetched that Hollywood screenwriters wouldn't touch it.
Any time spent playing firewall admin like this would be far better spent enabling MFA on everything you use and reconsidering the other software you install. Defending against the OS vendor is close to impossible and where people in reality lose data it's due to third-party apps / browser extensions, insecure backups, etc. which are both far more important and much easier to make meaningful improvements.
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Without saying anything about OSX in particular , any operating system that requires network access to log in is a user-hostile piece of shit, and the linked bug#284 pretty well implies that that is in fact the case. It's entirely possible that the problem is due to incompatibities with new OS code or bugs in the firewall program (edit: ie, your case a and case b), but evidence in the bug report pretty clearly sugges…
You're making a mistake jumping to the assumption of malice rather than thinking about all of the other possibilities. This class of bugs is pretty common: people sometimes test software without a network connection at all but its far less common to test with one which drops packets but does not return errors. I've had to fix variations of this problem on Windows, Linux, and things like VMware's HA module. My guess w…
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#134What about the same for Linux? I would pay twice the LittleSnitch price for it if it was working really good.
I'm aware no one asked, but in case anyone was scanning for Windows, simplewall is a reasonable alternative, both free and open source (development powered by donations): https://www.henrypp.org/product/simplewall I'm not affiliated with them.
Some features are paid.
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
iptables don't let you know when a particular program tries to access an outside host and choose whether you want to allow that. Speaking of a desktop (not a server) firewall I'm rarely even interested which host/port/whatever is a connection about. What matters to me is what app initiated it (if it's initiated from outside my PC it should be always blocked). Iptables used to expose a field attributing a connection t…
> iptables don't let you know when a particular program tries to access an outside host and choose whether you want to allow that. How does this model work for commonly used programs like curl? Do you block it and can't use it at all in your shell scripts, or do you whitelist it and hope that nefarious programs don't use it to exfiltrate data?
On Windows and Mac I don't really mind enabling/disabling whole Python/Java/whatever because I can do so in a couple of clicks (and I use more native apps there anyway, many untrusted native apps in particular).
By the way there are many processes on Linux which I would like to silence and theoretically could silence by just removing them as I never need them: I mean Avahi, Samba etc. However, today distros have all sorts of essential packages depending on these and won't let you uninstall them without destroying everything.
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its a firewall, it either works or it doesn't. If you don't allow me to block your services, then your firewall simply doesn't work.
Beyond being technically incorrect (a firewall with a whitelist still works) you're missing the larger point: if you don't trust Apple not to surreptitiously access your data, you can't rely on Apple-managed security mechanisms to enforce it. Run this command to look at the list of applications which aren't subject to the application-level firewall (the lower-level packet filter does still apply): defaults read /Syst…
Except this is exactly how sandboxing works, if you don't attribute malice to developers that enable it for their apps.
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Users can develop and install custom kernel extensions (.kexts) that can access everything, but they first need to disable System Integrity Protection in recovery mode. Over the years Apple expanded their frameworks library to reduce need for custom .kexts, but they are still supported even on M1 Macs (as long as they are compiled for ARM64). So to answer you question - 'root' user on macOS is by default not a true r…
It's honestly mind-boggling how many people whine and complain about macOS not "letting" them do this or that when they can turn off virtually every one of their gripes in about two minutes. The most egregious was someone complaining that /bin and other system folders are read-only [on systems under System Integrity Protection]. Surely anybody with a pressing desire to e.g. upgrade their bash install or any other thi…
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is mine from 2019: sudo killall ACCFinderSync “Core Sync” AdobeCRDaemon “Adobe Creative” AdobeIPCBroker node “Adobe Desktop Service” “Adobe Crash Reporter” I should probably stick it in Automator or something because Adobe's invasion is getting really annoying.
launchd sounds scary but it is not that hard to get an agent enabled. It's basically a plist file or two in the right place and a command to enable it. You can have launchd call your shell script once per minute. I used this to good effect once to log the output of a few debug commands to text, commit that to a git repo, and move on. Then I could come back later and see what was going on before an issue happened on t…
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
iptables don't let you know when a particular program tries to access an outside host and choose whether you want to allow that. Speaking of a desktop (not a server) firewall I'm rarely even interested which host/port/whatever is a connection about. What matters to me is what app initiated it (if it's initiated from outside my PC it should be always blocked). Iptables used to expose a field attributing a connection t…
Seems like you could do something with ebpf but how would you deal with the notifications in a cli env... special tty you connect to via tmux/screen?
That's a very interesting question. I'd love to invent something terminal-based for fun and for future occasions when I'm probably going to need that but I never actually needed that so far. I use GUI DEs 100% of time and I don't really care to firewall particular processes on remote servers I SSH to - those have other security policies doing the job pretty well for them.
Perhaps it could be a named pipe a TUI app (TUI running in a separate virtual console, or in a terminal multiplexer) would connect to.
Vuurmuur is an example of a nice TUI firewall app.
Re: Lulu – Mac open-source firewall that aims to block unknown outgoing connections
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you mind sharing your experience afterwards? The alternatives to SELinux in terms of network filtering seem to be so rare.
I can give you mine, since I use(d) opensnitch for a while. It works quite well but requires a GUI (obviously), it looks like it primarily supports GTK. If you're hoping to use the machine purely from the CLI (like, when sshing into your work machine) it won't work well. It is significantly less powerful than LittleSnitch, some options don't exist (like, allowing access to a domain), but you get similar functionality…
To make it no-less powerfull somebody has to invest time and expertise into extending the kernel for it - AFAIK LittleSnitch works this way on MacOS.