Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#371

Post by j4yav » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

yurielt wrote: post #341

j4yav wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't those subs tend to produce enough hate on their own without having to have anyone fake it? I have a cousin who is down the QAnon rabbit hole, believes a race war is coming, and will happily make new accounts and post all day long to whatever subs he thinks are on the same page as him. He's been through several facebook accounts in just last year. I can assure you he isn't an antifa plant.

> I have a cousin who is down the QAnon rabbit hole, believes a race war is coming, and will happily make new accounts and post all day long to whatever subs he thinks are on the same page as him. Of course lol you do pal and I have an uncle that works at Nintendo.

Sadly it's true, and not uncommon. It's possible your experience is different though, and I get that. My cousin always had issues this is just the latest thing he's latched onto.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#372

Post by b0rsuk » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

daemin wrote: post #365

b0rsuk wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, Poles are one of the purest or most inbred nations in Europe, and you have no one else but Adolf Hitler to thank for it. You see echoes of that in Witcher 3, I know it caused some controversy overseas because of how uniformly white everyone is. No malicious intent there, just modern Poles projecting their world back in time. Between WW1 and WW2, percentage of people identifying as Poles was less than 70…

I only found out recently that you need to go through a lengthy process back in the church where you were baptised in order to renounce yourself from the Catholic church here in Poland. Just being an atheist, not attending church, not believing, not supporting the organisation is enough. You need to go to your place of baptism, have multiple talks with the priest there, then fill out some forms, wait some time, etc.…

The process is why I don't bother. I was baptized when I was little and I don't consider that a proper contract. If they want to use bad input data, I'll let them deceive themselves. Going to the church and pleading is not only somewhat humiliating, it validates the contract between a little child and a very large organization.

"Colorful" people leaving because of a war implies a racist society where unusual people are merely tolerated at best of times. History is more complex than that. Duke Mieszko I, the first recorded ruler of Poland, gifted a camel (according to Thietmar) to Otto III, future emperor. That was in A.D. 986.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#373

Post by b0rsuk » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

daemin wrote: post #368

b0rsuk wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, but Zbigniew Ziobro (the minister) IS kinda insane in other aspects. He's a hardcore conservative. His childhood/teenage hero was Janosik, a highlander bandit along the lines of Robin Hood. Being a fan of vigilante justice is not a good sign if you're a minister of justice. He's bothered by independent courts and independent prosecutors. He puts pressure on judges ruling not along his will, he harasses them, stri…

This government is reminding me of a Communist state more and more each day.

Norman Davies, the British-Polish historian specializing in East Europe and fascinated by Poland in particular, agrees.

https://www.msn.com/pl-pl/wiadomosci/polska/norman-davies-%E...

He also said Polish priests hoped for theocracy in reward for their support against the communist state as it was falling apart.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Polska/comments/7c30dz/polski_probo...

He is overall very sympathetic towards Poland, speaks the language quite well, and thinks people should learn more about it. Timothy Snyder is another one. I like non-Polish historians because they have a different view.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#374

Post by centimeter » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

tpush wrote: post #214

centimeter wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mentioning true facts (mostly falsehoods, but also some true facts) about WW2 is already illegal in Germany.

Like what? Please don’t let it be Holocaust denial...

Of course that is illegal in Germany, but it's also illegal to make certain true claims that are contrary to the official narrative imposed on Germany after their defeat.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#375

Post by daemin » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 11:23 PM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #372

daemin wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only found out recently that you need to go through a lengthy process back in the church where you were baptised in order to renounce yourself from the Catholic church here in Poland. Just being an atheist, not attending church, not believing, not supporting the organisation is enough. You need to go to your place of baptism, have multiple talks with the priest there, then fill out some forms, wait some time, etc.…

The process is why I don't bother. I was baptized when I was little and I don't consider that a proper contract. If they want to use bad input data, I'll let them deceive themselves. Going to the church and pleading is not only somewhat humiliating, it validates the contract between a little child and a very large organization. "Colorful" people leaving because of a war implies a racist society where unusual people a…

Not necessarily that colourful people leave, but that outsiders leave. For one because they can and have somewhere else to go to, but the other because if they stay they will be viewed with suspicion and bad things might happen to them.

The Witcher series has been full of fearful populaces wary and hostile to outsiders/other races (Dwarves and Elves in this case).

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#376

Post by intended » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #344

intended wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't code. Plus you dont see people exposing themselves to prions or the plague. More pertinently, you could argue that we shouldn't worry about sociopaths, and that if they convince or charm someone - that's just bad luck, and it boosts people's immunity. Why did we worry about lootboxes or attention manipulating algorithms? Because when its not a fair fight, the outcome is not fair. If I sent you up agains…

> People aren't code. And yet we program them to read, write, do calculations, know some narrations about history of their civilisation and some narrations completely made up by fellow humans. Even know some things we discovered about our physical reality and some things we constructes. > Plus you dont see people exposing themselves to prions or the plague. Because they are way more lethal on consumption than any ide…

Sorry mate, these are assertions - I too have held them.

I simply have tested them, at length.

Which is why I encourage you to go ahead and join the fight, go volunteer earnestly as a mod.

If you survive burnout, you will see the contours of the battlefield - our human neurological weaknesses, the resources strung out on either side, the fragility of the structures we need as a society.

I repeat - all of these are simply assertions, and as a forum of techies, we should be testing these ideas - people here created tech which allows us to do this like no generation before us.

In the spirit of science - go for it.

I’ve spent years studying this, even wrote a dissertation on the subject space. I’ve had these discussions many times, I’ve seen what happens when people decide I am wrong and set out to prove it.

I have always wished people who take that task on, the very best. If you reach a different conclusion, I will be the happiest person in the world.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#377

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 12:01 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #5

> Under its provisions, social media services will not be allowed to remove content or block accounts if the content on them does not break Polish law. This is kind of insane. So if I offer a free website- a private company operating as I like- I would be forbidden from removing content from my own website that I don't like because the person who wrote it- again, not a paying customer- wants it to be there. Not only…

It is equally insane to say forbid hate speech as is can be interpreted as anything. Likewise, I assume they want to keep social media from deleting anything not aligned to the current zeitgeist.

The real problem are still people that want content removed that mostly doesn't even concern them in the first place.

But you are correct, a literal usage of this law is insane.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#378

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 12:05 PM UTC

j4yav wrote: post #303

notadev wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has already been weaponized by subs like /r/AgainstHateSubs and other vigilante-like subs. Their tactics usually involve posting in those subreddits from sockpuppet accounts, using hateful or threatening messages. The few times the targeted subs mods aren't on the ball, they mass report the post for hate speech to try and get the sub banned, or the mods banned then later request the subreddit for themselves, som…

Don't those subs tend to produce enough hate on their own without having to have anyone fake it? I have a cousin who is down the QAnon rabbit hole, believes a race war is coming, and will happily make new accounts and post all day long to whatever subs he thinks are on the same page as him. He's been through several facebook accounts in just last year. I can assure you he isn't an antifa plant.

These subs are one of the main drivers for people like your cousin.

They need each other like a married couple.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#379

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 12:10 PM UTC

centimeter wrote: post #374

tpush wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what? Please don’t let it be Holocaust denial...

Of course that is illegal in Germany, but it's also illegal to make certain true claims that are contrary to the official narrative imposed on Germany after their defeat.

Now you have me interested, which fact would that be?

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#380

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #376

scotty79 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People aren't code. And yet we program them to read, write, do calculations, know some narrations about history of their civilisation and some narrations completely made up by fellow humans. Even know some things we discovered about our physical reality and some things we constructes. > Plus you dont see people exposing themselves to prions or the plague. Because they are way more lethal on consumption than any ide…

Sorry mate, these are assertions - I too have held them. I simply have tested them, at length. Which is why I encourage you to go ahead and join the fight, go volunteer earnestly as a mod. If you survive burnout, you will see the contours of the battlefield - our human neurological weaknesses, the resources strung out on either side, the fragility of the structures we need as a society. I repeat - all of these are si…

Nah. That sounds like work. ;-)

Props to you for putting the work in and I don't deny your conclusions. Researching this must br very hard.

I just believe that there could be hope on epidemiological scale, even though we have to accept that many, many cases are irrecoverable.

I believe that average resilience of people to stupid ideas could be improved. And I believe so because social networks degraded it with very specific mechanisms (like mere exposure effect), not just by putting people in touch.