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Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

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Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#361

Post by sigotirandolas »

kevinh wrote: post #295
notadev wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has already been weaponized by subs like /r/AgainstHateSubs and other vigilante-like subs. Their tactics usually involve posting in those subreddits from sockpuppet accounts, using hateful or threatening messages. The few times the targeted subs mods aren't on the ball, they mass report the post for hate speech to try and get the sub banned, or the mods banned then later request the subreddit for themselves, som…

> Their tactics usually involve posting in those subreddits from sockpuppet accounts, using hateful or threatening messages. Any evidence for this?

Do you need any evidence for this? Shouldn't this be handled in the same way you would patch a security hole even if you had no evidence it was being exploited?

I.e. shouldn't Reddit let a community exist, even if some users post content against the rules, as long as the moderators are putting a reasonable, good faith effort to ban such users?

(I don't know if what notadev said is true, or if Reddit bans communities just because users are posting bad content against the moderators will)

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#362

Post by disabled »

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #209
disabled wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDPR outside the European Union only applies to European Union based companies (headquartered in the EU). Otherwise, it is limited to internet traffic from people within the European Union. This rule was unclear in the beginning of the law implement, but there have been high court rulings clearing up the confusion. See this, for example “Google wins landmark right to be forgotten case”: https://www.bbc.com/news/techn…

It is a bit more complicated: the EU considers the protection of personal data a basic human right (charta of fundamental rights article 8). As such there are cases where the EU considers itself to be the responsible authority, even if the company is not within the EU, as long as the data subject is. There are limits to that due to contract law, but there are also limits how many rights one can sign away, especially…

That’s a great point. Sorry I was not as inclusive as I should have been in my explanation.

I am a dual US|EU citizen, but I am culturally American. I was trying to explain it from the perspective of Americans.

Thank you again for the clarification.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#363

Post by EliRivers »

CydeWeys wrote: post #263
busythrowaway22 wrote: post #139

As someone hiding behind a throwaway account in an effort to avoid doxing and harassment, and getting my more legitimate online presence removed due to hysterics: I welcome the idea of this change. Though I think it is wrong the way it is implemented. I do not speak Polish, and maybe perhaps the Polish law is more nuanced than the article describes. There should be a law that says you cannot produce a unilateral term…

> You agree to not arbitrarily remove me from your service Per basic contract law, this is only going to fly if money is changing hands. You and Facebook sign a contract with these stipulations and you pay them for the privilege of using their platform, and now if they remove you you have damages that can be enforced. Absent you paying them they have no obligation to host any of your content. Are you willing to pay F…

I'm not sure that's true. Typically (and of course other jurisdictions vary anyway) there doesn't have to be money; there just has to be a consideration, which can be money. Something of value flowing both ways. A lot of contracts end up with a consideration on one party of something nominal like a dollar or a pound, but it doesn't have to be money.

"You get my details and my attention and can harvest my data and make money from it" certainly sounds like it could be argued as having value.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#364

Post by CydeWeys »

EliRivers wrote: post #363
CydeWeys wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You agree to not arbitrarily remove me from your service Per basic contract law, this is only going to fly if money is changing hands. You and Facebook sign a contract with these stipulations and you pay them for the privilege of using their platform, and now if they remove you you have damages that can be enforced. Absent you paying them they have no obligation to host any of your content. Are you willing to pay F…

I'm not sure that's true. Typically (and of course other jurisdictions vary anyway) there doesn't have to be money; there just has to be a consideration, which can be money. Something of value flowing both ways. A lot of contracts end up with a consideration on one party of something nominal like a dollar or a pound, but it doesn't have to be money. "You get my details and my attention and can harvest my data and mak…

You're out on a bit of a shaky limb here. There's clear precedent in contract law for damages when money is changing hands. But non-compensated access to data? I'm doubtful. Do you have any established case law in this vein you can point to?

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#365

Post by daemin »

b0rsuk wrote: post #349
olliej wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's getting downvoted because you said this in the most racist sounding way possible. "Various polish governments have done XYZ" vs. "polish people lie". It's similar to "Israel does XYZ to Palestinians" vs "Jews want XYZ to happen to Palestinians" (to use a common antisemitic trope trying to justify antisemitism)

Incidentally, Poles are one of the purest or most inbred nations in Europe, and you have no one else but Adolf Hitler to thank for it. You see echoes of that in Witcher 3, I know it caused some controversy overseas because of how uniformly white everyone is. No malicious intent there, just modern Poles projecting their world back in time. Between WW1 and WW2, percentage of people identifying as Poles was less than 70…

I only found out recently that you need to go through a lengthy process back in the church where you were baptised in order to renounce yourself from the Catholic church here in Poland. Just being an atheist, not attending church, not believing, not supporting the organisation is enough. You need to go to your place of baptism, have multiple talks with the priest there, then fill out some forms, wait some time, etc.

I wonder if people actually know this, and how many actually go through the pain of "de-registering" themselves from this organisation.

I also wonder how this affects things like "official statistics" of Catholics in the country.

Regarding Witcher 3 there is a very simple reason for nearly all the people being white. It's because the region is in turmoil and there's a war going on. So all the people (of different skin colour, different race) that can leave have already done so.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#366

Post by daemin »

viraptor wrote: post #308
alsetmusic wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be a nightmare for anyone trying to host a family-friendly forum. “Hey, no pornography!” “What are you gonna do about it?” Completely reactionary and fails to consider practicality.

Don't put it past Polish law and order to rule pornography illegal soon. (And contraception probably sooner) I wouldn't be surprised at attempts - they're quite conservative.

You already need to go see a doctor and get a prescription for anything contraception related, and they can decide not to give it to you. This includes "the pill" as well as "the morning after pill".

Also the recent rulings on Abortion almost caused a revolution. So they might be more careful in the coming months.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#367

Post by bsradcliffe »

bsradcliffe wrote: post #343
mabbo wrote: post #5

> Under its provisions, social media services will not be allowed to remove content or block accounts if the content on them does not break Polish law. This is kind of insane. So if I offer a free website- a private company operating as I like- I would be forbidden from removing content from my own website that I don't like because the person who wrote it- again, not a paying customer- wants it to be there. Not only…

Ah, Poland. The next 1930s Germany.

I say this to reinforce what OP points out. If the government disagrees with something, they can now simply rewrite a law to enable their censorship. That is scary, given they don't have a definitive law protecting people from government censorship.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#368

Post by daemin »

b0rsuk wrote: post #224
mabbo wrote: post #5

> Under its provisions, social media services will not be allowed to remove content or block accounts if the content on them does not break Polish law. This is kind of insane. So if I offer a free website- a private company operating as I like- I would be forbidden from removing content from my own website that I don't like because the person who wrote it- again, not a paying customer- wants it to be there. Not only…

Oh, but Zbigniew Ziobro (the minister) IS kinda insane in other aspects. He's a hardcore conservative. His childhood/teenage hero was Janosik, a highlander bandit along the lines of Robin Hood. Being a fan of vigilante justice is not a good sign if you're a minister of justice. He's bothered by independent courts and independent prosecutors. He puts pressure on judges ruling not along his will, he harasses them, stri…

This government is reminding me of a Communist state more and more each day.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#369

Post by dang »

yurielt wrote: post #341
j4yav wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't those subs tend to produce enough hate on their own without having to have anyone fake it? I have a cousin who is down the QAnon rabbit hole, believes a race war is coming, and will happily make new accounts and post all day long to whatever subs he thinks are on the same page as him. He's been through several facebook accounts in just last year. I can assure you he isn't an antifa plant.

> I have a cousin who is down the QAnon rabbit hole, believes a race war is coming, and will happily make new accounts and post all day long to whatever subs he thinks are on the same page as him. Of course lol you do pal and I have an uncle that works at Nintendo.

Can you please stop using HN for political battle? We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which politics they're battling for. We have to, because otherwise this will destroy the community. HN is a site for curious, thoughtful conversation, not hellfire.

Also, please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#370

Post by kennywinker »

tomaszs wrote: post #337
kennywinker wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wikipedia page I linked to clearly points out that polish people WERE involved in the holocaust. Not all, in fact I believe the vast majority of poles were not collaborators... but that doesn't mean this law doesn't make it legally sketchy to talk about the poles who were collaborators

Polish people were exterminated on a daily basis by German nazis. Over 5 million Poles were brutally killed. It is hard to miss German attack and occupation of Poland aim was also to depopulate it from polish people. Collaborators were punished because they were traitors and everyone seen and sees them like such. Below is a link to a Wikipedia where you can learn more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Polan…

Just one example from your link:

> Especially in the early weeks of the German offensive, many thousands of Jews were murdered by members of local communities in the western parts of the previously Soviet zone, such as the Baltic countries, eastern Poland, and western Ukraine.

I am absolutely not trying to paint a complex situation in black and white. The article you linked to also points out how many non-jewish poles were killed, how many non-jewish poles helped jewish poles at great risk to themselves, etc. but the idea that you can “other” collaborator poles out of being poles is denying the reality.

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