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Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

arxiv.org

191–200 of 227 posts

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute, does this paper include various hypercomputers or is it only about conventional computation? Although I personally believe hypercomputers are not physically possible, I'm not aware of any general proof that they are physically impossible. I've seen papers that suggest physical models for hypercomputers. Notice that there is a hierarchy of hypercomputers of varying powers and some of them can solve the…

The paper includes quantum computers, it does not include computers that exploit CTCs or similar things whose existence we can only speculate upon. Note however that CTCs don't give you hypercomputation. Do you have a link discussing physical models for hypercomputers?

Most papers criticize the idea and describe physical limits. I don't remember which one on the physical possibility of hypercomputation I read (a long time ago), but there are some papers such as the following:

https://oronshagrir.huji.ac.il/sites/default/files/oronshagr...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11047-009-9114-3

https://sci-hub.do/10.1142/S0129626412400105

An overview is in A. Syropoulos: Hypercomputation: Computing Beyond the Church-Turing Barrier. Springer 2008, chapters 8-9.

Gotta love the subsection headline in the third paper mentioned above: "A CTC Based Relativistic Hypercomputer That Actually Works Without Problems." ;-)

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are thinking of something similar to the level of today's neuroscience and brain imaging, where indeed we can only establish correlations. But I am talking about a much more in-depth understanding of the working of the brain, similar to the level of understanding we have of a microprocessor all the way from transistors to the algorithms running on it. If we could understand human thought at a similar level, we MI…

> If we could understand human thought at a similar level, we MIGHT find out that "the feeling of red" is not fundamentally different than "the understanding that 1 + 1 = 2", and we could come up with quantifications of it in different ways, from the physical representation in the brain to a certain "bit pattern" in the abstract model of the human brain computer. I guess the idea is that an abstract concept like "the…

> A similar argument -- though he didn't take it as far -- was made by John Searle (of Chinese Room fame). [2]

I have read the entire paper - thank you for the link! - and I find it either false or trivial (to use a style of observation from Chomsky). Searle is asserting that computers don't do anything without homunculi to observe their computation, which is patently false. If I create a robot with an optical camera that detects if there is a large object near itself and uses an arm to open a door if so, the system works (or doesn't work) regardless of any meaning that is ascribed to its computations by an observer. It is true that the computation isn't "physical" in the sense that there isn't a particle of 0 or 1 that could be measured, but it is also impossible to describe the behavior of the system without ultimately referring to the computation it performs. So, if Searle is claiming that such a system only works (opens the door) in relation to some observer, then he is obviously wrong. If he is claiming that the physical processes that occur inside the microprocessor and actuators are the real explanation for how the system behaves, not the computational model, then he is in some sense right, but that is trivially true and no one would really contest it.

Furthermore, there likely is no way to actually give an accurate, formal physical model of this entire system that does not also include some kind of computational model of the algorithm it performs to interpret the photons hitting the sensor as an image, to detect the object, to determine if the object is large enough that the door should be opened, to control the actuator that opens the door etc.

Basically, you can look at human beings as black boxes that take in inputs from the environment and produce output. Searle and I both agree that there exists some formal mathematical model that describes how the output the human being will give is related to the input that it gets (including all past inputs and possibly the entire evolutionary history). However, he seems to somehow believe that computation is not necessary as a part of this formal model, which I find perplexing.

His claims that cognitivists believe that if they successfully create a computer mimicking some aspect of human capacity that the computers IS that human capacity seems completely foreign to me, I have never seen someone truly claim something this absurd. At most, I have seen claims that if we have successfully created a computer system mimicking a human capacity, that this constitutes proof against mind/body dualism at least for that particular capacity, which is I think relatively correct, though more formally this should be called evidence against the need for mind/body dualism rather that actual proof.

> because denying this would be denying our ability to engage in coherent reasoning and therefore self-defeating. So those mental states can't be "implemented" solely using physical states.

I don't think this holds water. A computer (the theoretical model) is, be definition, something that can perform coherent reasoning without any special internal state. A physical realization of a Turing machine can "think about" any kind of computational problem and come up with the same answer that a human would come up with, at least in the Chinese room sense. Yet we know that the Turing machine doesn't have any qualia, so why should we then believe that qualia are fundamental to reason itself?

To me, computer science has taken out all of the wind from any kind of qualia-based representation of the human mind.

> But in any event, I would reject the notion that any representation of "the feeling of red" is equivalent to the sensation itself.

This I agree with in some sense - the map is not the thing. Let's assume for a moment that we have an AGI which uses regular RAM to store its internal state. Let's also assume that the AGI claims that it is currently experiencing the feeling of seeing red. We could take a snapshot of its RAM and analyze this, and even show it to another AGI, which could recognize that some particular bit pattern is the representation of the AGI feeling of red. Still, that second AGI would not be feeling "I am seeing red" when analyzing this bit pattern. It could though feel "I am seeing red" if it copied the bit pattern into the relevant part of its own memory, even if its optic sensors were in no way receiving red light.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#193
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the central point, which is that computation is observer relative. Anything can be interpreted as a computational process. Searle: "Thus for example the wall behind my back is right now implementing the Wordstar program, because there is some pattern of molecule movements which is isomorphic with the formal structure of Wordstar. But if the wall is implementing Wordstar then if it is a big enou…

Scott Aaronson has, iirc, suggested the idea that the complexity of such an isomorphism could be the distinguishing thing between whether or not something should be said to be computing a particular think. Sounds plausible to me.

I believe that if you could prove that you have an actual isomorphism in the full formal sense of the world, the question about its complexity wouldn't really matter.

However, for a practical claim, it is probably impossible to formally prove that an interpreter function is both bijective between a physical system and a computation (it maps absolutely every possible state of the physical system to exactly one step of a computation).

However, it's important that the following argument can be made: if the evolution of a physical system is isomorphic to a computation of a particular algorithm for solving the traveling salesman problem, and if the phsyical system needs ~1 second for each step, then the system can't go from state A to state B in less than X seconds, where X is the number of steps required by that algorithm to reach those same steps. The actual interpretation of the algorithm or its purpose is not relevant here, the mathematical limits of how the computation happens remain relevant regardless.

That is because you can't find 2 different isomorphisms between the same physical system and 2 different computation that are not isomorphic to each other, if these are actual proper isomorhpisms (bijective) and not just hand-wavy analogies.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#194
post #18

Arguments that claim something is impossible from an argument related to the halting problem are generally bogus. The halting problem applies only to deterministic systems with infinite state. If you have finite state and determinism, you have to eventually repeat a state, or halt. Note that "very large" and "infinite" are not the same thing here. Not being able to predict something for combinatorial or noise reasons…

You're missing the point. First, even with determinism and finite state, to witness the repeated state for any arbitrary program would require a meta machine with _more_ memory then the running machine.

That's the ultimate problem, internally you can't notice if you're going to terminate, and a machine of the same power can't either. It's gotta be stronger.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#195
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you're not being facetious, in English vernacular being a frustrated X (as in a frustrated academic, frustrated poet, etc.) means that the person is actually not that, but have in some way been prevented from being the thing (frustrated) and have perhaps rancor in regards to the frustration and towards those who actually are the thing (this second feature being sometimes implied depending on who is doing the descr…

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the 2nd meaning. I also interpreted the "frustrated academic" as "an annoyed academic", rather than "an unsuccesfull academic".

I'm thinking maybe it is no longer as common an expression as I thought, given the people who've mistaken it here.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#197
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of the 2nd meaning. I also interpreted the "frustrated academic" as "an annoyed academic", rather than "an unsuccesfull academic".

I'm thinking maybe it is no longer as common an expression as I thought, given the people who've mistaken it here.

I think it didn't help that they used both meanings of the word "frustrated" in the same sentence. By adding "perhaps my frustration is unwarranted", it puts emphasis on the fact they are frustrated, not that they failed to become an academic. It leads the reader to believe they are in fact still an active academic.

I was only dimly aware of the second meaning of the word so I'm not sure how you would interpret it if you had a good understanding of the multiple interpretations.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#198
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the Stanisław Lem story "GOLEM XIV". GOLEM is one of a series of machines constructed to plan World War III, as is its sister HONEST ANNIE. But to the frustration of their human creators these more sophisticated machines refuse to plan World War III and instead seem to become philosophers (Golem) or just refuse to communicate with humans at all (Annie). Lots of supposedly smart humans try to debate with Gol…

> for the same reason humans largely don't think about flies. What's to think about? They're just an annoyance, to be swatted aside. We can choose to think of flies; to imagine they are as people, with their own (short) lives, wants and wishes and dreams; that there is fly art and fly culture equal to our own. We can so imbue those flies with our animism and ethics, and treat them the way we should (ethically) treat…

If you haven't read it, I think you would really enjoy the book Blindsight (https://archive.org/details/PeterWattsBlindsight/page/n3/mod...).

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not even clear exactly how our brains work so its hard to imagine that they couldn't be implemented with a sufficiently powerful computer... Not commenting on what OP said, but I don't think this is correct. Even in principle, how can any computational process produce conscious experiences, which are by nature subjective and unquantifiable?

We don't understand yet, in any formal sense, what consciousness and subjective experience are. It may turn out that they are fundamentally different than mathematics and computation, but the vast majority of scientists believe today that they are not. The most common belief is that consciousness is simply the self-introspection of a sufficiently powerful computer that can form models of other agents. That is, this c…

Saying “no one has any qualia” is the kind of thing that gives philosophy a bad name — it’s obviously false to everyone who hears it, by the very fact they feel something in response.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#200
post #21

This is just science fiction. To mention "recent developments" in the introduction is somewhat misleading considering how far the current state of technology is from their hypothetical superintelligence. We don't have superintelligence, we don't have the remote idea of how to get started on creating it, in all likelihood we don't even have the correct hardware for it or any idea what the correct hardware would look l…

Well, we do know that normal intelligence (superintelligence from chimps point of view) is achievable just fine.
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