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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

electronupdate.blogspot.com

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#141

Post by everdrive »

rubyfan wrote: post #138
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

I think both you, and the parent you're responding to are correct. Amazon is not evil, they're merely self-interested. This can lead them to do some evil things, but they are not a cartoon villain, twisting their mustache in shadows.

On the other hand, it's important to verify claims, and Amazon should be very happy about this verification. It proves that their claim could be trusted. Some other conclusion could have just as easily been true.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#142

Post by jcims »

pansa2 wrote: post #81
jessriedel wrote: post #20

Conclusion: > But, basically if one presses the switch it causes the flip-flops to change state and to then either add or remove power from the microphones. > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones.

I sometimes write articles describing investigations similar to this one. Do you think this article’s structure is appropriate? Or would it be better to reduce the need for comments like this one by putting the conclusion much earlier in the piece? I understand not putting the conclusion in the title, but perhaps in the first paragraph, in the spirit of BLUF [0]? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)

We used to do that with all of our security assessment reports. It let people actually focus on the content vs. being distracted by waiting for the punchline at the end. To a person, our customers absolutely loved it.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#143

Post by breakfastduck »

randomsearch wrote: post #134
KraftKacke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

If anything it's even worse with a mobile phone because that follows you after you've left the house.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#144

Post by squaresmile »

pansa2 wrote: post #81
jessriedel wrote: post #20

Conclusion: > But, basically if one presses the switch it causes the flip-flops to change state and to then either add or remove power from the microphones. > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones.

I sometimes write articles describing investigations similar to this one. Do you think this article’s structure is appropriate? Or would it be better to reduce the need for comments like this one by putting the conclusion much earlier in the piece? I understand not putting the conclusion in the title, but perhaps in the first paragraph, in the spirit of BLUF [0]? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)

I personally enjoy a good story. I think articles like this are about the story as much as if not more than their informational aspect. They are kind of like cool stories you tell your friends. You can see it the conversational sentences in this article.

Especially if it's an article and not a video when I could easily skim to the end to read the conclusion if I don't want to read the story. I feel disrespectful towards the author if I want the conclusion up front.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#145

Post by xg15 »

HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

You're right, but how to do it otherwise? With the camera, there is at least the option of installing a mechanical shutter that can be easily seen (and understood) by users. With audio, I can't think of any similar solutions at the top of my head.

Of course, technically, not even this hardwired circuit is complete proof that there is no trickery going on. If Amazon really wanted, they could simply hide a second mic at some other place inside the device.

I think the only solution that would really solve this was public auditing of the whole device.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#147

Post by ballenf »

randomsearch wrote: post #134
KraftKacke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

I think the issue is one of the consumer's intent: are you buying a phone with a bunch of extra capabilities or a microphone hooked to a data center around the world? And that explicit decision is what is jarring to people who value privacy.

Of course they both have microphones hooked to data centers, but the Alexas/Echos are almost worthless without the microphone enabled. Many people I know have turned off listening for trigger words on their phone.

That being said, I have a HomePod that I have to manually press the touch button on top for it to listen. I use it for music, an occasional family conference call and occasional for generic assistant stuff like weather.

I tried a Google Home but couldn't get it configured in that mode -- listen on physical touch only (that was 3-4 years ago). And doubly couldn't get it setup without deep integration into a google account. The HomePod complains occasionally that it can't answer because it hasn't been personalized to an account, but is otherwise totally fine operating without access to my every inner thought (web/location history, etc.).

I'm just as concerned about every modern car essentially being a microphone hooked to a datacenter on wheels. And new TVs. And a few refrigerators and kids toys. And light switches. At least phones (well iPhones -- haven't used the last few Android versions) are easy to setup without listening enabled. And on iPhones it's opt-in during the setup process (the Siri checkbox is default on, but you are prompted to decide with no other confusing decisions on the screen at the same time).

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#148

Post by jwr »

tangoalpha wrote: post #37

An OTA firmware update can change this behavior overnight. Unless it's a physical bounce switch that actually disconnects power mechanically, you are still at the mercy of someone else.

Incorrect. The main conclusion of the article is that firmware can't affect the function of the switch.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#149

Post by oops »

jessriedel wrote: post #20

Conclusion: > But, basically if one presses the switch it causes the flip-flops to change state and to then either add or remove power from the microphones. > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones.

> The SOC (system on chip) controller seems to be connected to the flip flop resets, which makes sense as the product powers on with the microphone enabled as default....

It sounds like you could press mute, walk away and it could reset unmuting itself in the process without you realizing. You would need to constantly monitor that LED for assurance it is still muted. It’s not clear to me from the article how the SOC is connected to the flipflop reset. i.e. can the flipflop reset be initiated via software?

A mechanical switch that can’t so easily and unexpectedly lose its state would be preferable. There are probably good reasons they didn’t do that (aesthetics, cost, reliability?)

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#150

Post by danhor »

jstanley wrote: post #116

To wear a tinfoil hat for a moment: > The SOC (system on chip) controller seems to be connected to the flip flop resets > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones. Does the microphone take any time to boot up? How far could a malicious SoC get by toggling "reset" on and off very fast? If you toggle the microphone on and off at 96kH…

The reset stays. If the soc toggles the reset line, the microphone stays on and the led turns off, until the user presses the mute button
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