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Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

arxiv.org

181–190 of 227 posts

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#181

Trollywood inspired fear mongering. I said so before, and will do so again: If the emerged thing is so intelligent, what would stop it from establishing a network of shell companies, buying chip-, robotics-, manufacturing-, aerospace companies, or set them up somewhere in a favourable jurisdiction and pull a CyberX by launching itself into space, mine asteroids, solar winds, expand, explore, whatever? As in: "So Long…

The issue is that unless you design the objective for the AI very very carefully, the best solution will be

1. Take over the entire universe.

2. Do what you originally set out to do.

The paperclips game is a beautiful exposition of this.

https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index2.html

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#182
post #39
post #18

Arguments that claim something is impossible from an argument related to the halting problem are generally bogus. The halting problem applies only to deterministic systems with infinite state. If you have finite state and determinism, you have to eventually repeat a state, or halt. Note that "very large" and "infinite" are not the same thing here. Not being able to predict something for combinatorial or noise reasons…

Different for pure mathematics sure, but is that of practical importance given how fast busy-beaver numbers grow?

Busy beavers have an infinite tape to work with, so that's a pretty big difference.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#184
post #181

Trollywood inspired fear mongering. I said so before, and will do so again: If the emerged thing is so intelligent, what would stop it from establishing a network of shell companies, buying chip-, robotics-, manufacturing-, aerospace companies, or set them up somewhere in a favourable jurisdiction and pull a CyberX by launching itself into space, mine asteroids, solar winds, expand, explore, whatever? As in: "So Long…

The issue is that unless you design the objective for the AI very very carefully, the best solution will be 1. Take over the entire universe. 2. Do what you originally set out to do. The paperclips game is a beautiful exposition of this. https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index2.html

Sigh. I'm so tired of that paperclipping thing. I thought that would be obvious from what I've written? Do I need to explicitely state every time that I'm aware of it, and it's boring the hell out of me?

Let me try to make myself clear as simple as possible:

1.) We/you design some thing.

2.) Your fear is that this thing somehow grows even more intelligent behind our backs.

3.) We/you get paranoid, assuming it's getting paranoid too because of our paranoia.

4.) I'm asking if it makes sense to tag a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium onto everything, because we don't know any better?

5.) Furthermore I'm stating that wouldn't really be intelligent because waste of time, effort, resources, yadda yarr yarr.

6.) Why would this emergent thing have to retain anything of that from which it emerged? Our constraints, goals, rules?

7.) YOU in an endless loop, like a broken record with a scratch on it...but but but vee arr zo stoopid, thus AI must be, too!

8.) I again, tired: maybe, but can you really tell, you apprentice sorcerers? Does it always have to be a faustian pact? Maybe it likes us like some of us do like kittens?

9.) Can't you invent some really new, innovative and progressive stories to tell around the cybernetic camp fires?

10.) /endrant

edit: Keep your Bostromian Snake Oil!

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one thought that flight was impossible. Birds were known in the 19th Century

eh? No one thinks AGI is impossible, brains do it. What's your point?

Difference is, people were able to propose detailed mechanisms for realistic flying machines long before we actually achieved powered flight - that was mainly a matter of increasing the power to weight ratio of the propulsion system. For AGI, do you really think there are detailed proposals out there today that can achieve AGI but are only missing the computational power?

Actually the existence of human brains with their (comparatively) extremely low power consumption, indicates that we need something radically different from current silicon-based processors to achieve AGI.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#186
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that unless you design the objective for the AI very very carefully, the best solution will be 1. Take over the entire universe. 2. Do what you originally set out to do. The paperclips game is a beautiful exposition of this. https://www.decisionproblem.com/paperclips/index2.html

Sigh. I'm so tired of that paperclipping thing. I thought that would be obvious from what I've written? Do I need to explicitely state every time that I'm aware of it, and it's boring the hell out of me? Let me try to make myself clear as simple as possible: 1.) We/you design some thing. 2.) Your fear is that this thing somehow grows even more intelligent behind our backs. 3.) We/you get paranoid, assuming it's getti…

That's because it's based on what scientists are researching. Scientists are working on objective maximizers. Maybe there are other possibilities, but people aren't working on them so they are not as relevant.

See what I'm saying? People are building paperclip optimizers in labs right now, and the only reason they aren't taking over the world just yet is because our attempts are so primitive.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#187
Am I the only one who wonders how we will create a super intelligence, when we cannot even really define (let alone measure) intelligence?

To me, this is a fun thought experiment. But it's not a real threat because it assumes a whole bunch of things that are not evident:

* that intelligence will spontaneously occur somewhere

* that it will be malevolent

* that it will become super smart

* that that super smartness will allow it to escape because super smartness trumps all other security

Any one of these assumptions seems pretty flawed to me. Let alone the combination of them all...

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eh? No one thinks AGI is impossible, brains do it. What's your point?

Difference is, people were able to propose detailed mechanisms for realistic flying machines long before we actually achieved powered flight - that was mainly a matter of increasing the power to weight ratio of the propulsion system. For AGI, do you really think there are detailed proposals out there today that can achieve AGI but are only missing the computational power? Actually the existence of human brains with t…

> For AGI, do you really think there are detailed proposals out there today that can achieve AGI but are only missing the computational power?

Yes, I really do. It's neural networks, nothing more. All that is required is more power. Despite its lower power the brain is much more computationally powerful than even the largest supercomputers.

Although it is not necessary, imo, to have a much more efficient computing substrate to achieve GAI, there is work in this direction. Look into optical reservoir computing. Or more generally thermodynamic computing. https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01968

Machine learning is progressing rapidly mostly because the computational power is increasing rapidly. Read this for an understanding of how important computational power is to progress in machine learning: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html

Time and time again computational power trumps complicated technique. It is fairly obvious to many now, after the continued scaling of the GPT-x series models, that genuine intelligence is an emergent property of the kind of systems we are building. It is an emergent property of systems that are driven to predict their environment - no more secret sauce to discover.

I think a major objection people have to the idea that machines are already a little intelligent is that they cannot understand how intelligence can emerge from pure computation. They imagine that there must be some magic between the operation of neurons in their mind and their experience of the world. Qualia where does it come from, how can it be just neurons, just inanimate physical matter? Combine this philosophical objection with the emotional response to the threatening nature of AGI and you have a milieu that refuses to see what is directly in front of its nose.

There are plenty of philosophical positions that allow you to understand how consciousness might emerge naturally from computation. Consciousness is emergent... Panspermia, consciousness is found in everything. To imagine consciousness in the movement of 1s and 0s within a machine is not too hard, to see the consciousness inside the "chinese room" is not really so difficult.

But none of this is relevant to the original argument I was making which is: trying to tell the future is very hard. Because it is simply a fact that before most great breakthroughs there is a common opinion that such a thing is, if not impossible, then in some distant future.

I think there are very very good reasons to think that a general intelligence of genuine utility is not more than 10 years away. I think people will look back at GPT-3 as the first proto form of the general intelligences that will exist in the future.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#189
post #76

In my opinion, all the talks about the potential danger of advanced AI is highly speculative and revolves around a very simple thing: fear of the unknown, that's all. We simply don't know. And some people are also afraid of creation by accident, because intelligence is seen as an emergent property of complex networks, but again, this is because we don't understand much about it. Tldr; Nothing to see here, move along.

The fears and warnings of the AI safety guys are real and closer than you think. Machine superintelligence is a bit on the extreme side, but formulating safety protocols for autonomous machines is a real challenge. We do know that optimisation functions can indeed create harmful and outright dangerous results. It's not an unknown that AI safety researchers fear, it's actual outcomes or real experiments extrapolated i…

This is a bad example. The intelligence needed to carry out your described outcomes is more or less AGI already, and that is advanced enough that describing it as a dumb optimization machine is likely naive.

Further, if you want to optimize stamp collection, you don't tell a model what it can't do, you tell it what it can do. It can make trades on stampcollectors.com, for +/- 20% of asking price, max 30 trades per day. Yes, there are some funny examples of RL algos finding weird hacks to beat their simulation, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. We will not see an AI that, from scratch, can learn how to hack bank accounts to buy stamps. The number of nth order observations you need before one can even consider trying to hack a bank account to purchase stamps is ludicrous. If it is even possible, it pales in comparison to the likelihood of someone just making a bot to hack banks to begin with.

Re: Superintelligence cannot be contained: Lessons from Computability Theory

#190
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. I'm so tired of that paperclipping thing. I thought that would be obvious from what I've written? Do I need to explicitely state every time that I'm aware of it, and it's boring the hell out of me? Let me try to make myself clear as simple as possible: 1.) We/you design some thing. 2.) Your fear is that this thing somehow grows even more intelligent behind our backs. 3.) We/you get paranoid, assuming it's getti…

That's because it's based on what scientists are researching. Scientists are working on objective maximizers. Maybe there are other possibilities, but people aren't working on them so they are not as relevant. See what I'm saying? People are building paperclip optimizers in labs right now , and the only reason they aren't taking over the world just yet is because our attempts are so primitive.

Yes, yes! But...that are human scientists. Why would anything from them apply to something which we can't even imagine? Isn't that what all this rambling is about? Something emerges, morphs(maybe unseen/unintended) into another Gestalt/shape/form which for all practical purposes is unconstrained.

Most of you: We are sooo fucked!

I: Are we really? How do you know?

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