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Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

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Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#311

Post by flukus »

onli wrote: post #12
mc32 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with electronics is often a brand new unit costs less than replacing a faulty part on an old unit due to miniaturization and having everything on chip combined with economics of scale. Still it’s a worthwhile pursuit. At some point pocket PCs/phones will be good enough, just as for many a 2014 laptop is still good enough.

They already are. Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today. That goes for the repairable ones at least, like the LG G5, but even the older LG G3 holds up well. If all modern phones were as repairable as those we could eliminate so much garbage!

> Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today.

The problem is that this has happened despite my usage not changing.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#312

Post by cafxx »

ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

> Few people care to repair Android phones because you can't upgrade the OS after 2 years regardless.

I sincerely hope the EU will actually do something about that as well. As you point out, it makes no sense to allow to repair something that receives no support for its software components.

What I hope they will do is actually mandating that, if an item is sold as having networking capabilities, the manufacturer is required to maintain (as in, provide security updates for) the software required for the item to continue working as sold, at least for the intended lifetime of the item (that should be explicitly stated by the manufacturer). Maybe exceptions could be granted - after a minimum period of mandatory first-party support - if all code required to build the firmware was open sourced.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#314

Post by narag »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #263
stretchcat wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) Making their things easy to repair. 2) Creating in house recycling programs. 3) Making equipment more durable and longer lasting The first and third should not be on equal footing with the second. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle is meant to be applied in that order. Many environmental crimes can be hidden in a recycling program. Many products are not truly recyclable, but tell consumers they are. Sometimes they are only…

Exactly. And the most impactful solution is also one incompatible with growth-based consumer economy: buy less stuff . Recycling won't be an answer even if, through some miracle, everything would became fully recyclable in practice. The reason is that most materials cannot be recycled indefinitely - they degrade. On top of that, turning trash into input material usually consumes some non-recoverable matter (e.g. chem…

Isn't it sad that right to repair needs to be framed this way?

I mean, it's fine to look after the environment.

But...

It seems impossible to ask for individual rights. This is after all an individual right. My right to repair something that I paid for.

But...

It's presented as a collective benefit, the abstract save the planet thing.

We're nothing important unless we're a part of the collective. Or even worse, some abstract idea like the purity of our Precious Bodily Fluids. I'll go to sleep now.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#315

Post by jeswin »

ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

> Few people care to repair Android phones because you can't upgrade the OS after 2 years regardless.

This is a mistruth (add: unintentional I'm sure) - and I hope people stop repeating this. I'll explain in detail.

1. Older versions of Android aren't crippled in the way an older iOS version is. On iOS for instance, Safari is tied to the iOS, while on Android none of the apps are tied to the OS version. Any phone running Android 7 (or maybe even 6) would run the most Google and non-Google services without any problems.

2. Most good Android phones such as those from Samsung or Google get 3 years of updates. If you have a Galaxy S8 from Apr 2017, you're still receiving updates in 2021.

3. Finally you have LineageOS. If you choose the phone correctly, you can potentially have very long term support with the excellent LineageOS. Now this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but for most people on HN it's fairly trivial to do.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#316

Post by bwilli123 »

ryandrake wrote: post #208
ogre_codes wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Absolutely! It is far too easy to create disposable crap that ends up dumped all over the planet. I get so frustrated seeing garbage all over the place in natural places. I do think its a lot easier to focus on the higher ticket items first.

The amount of plastic and paper packaging/marketing that you are forced to accept and dispose of when you buy products is getting extreme. I recently bought a micro-sd card, and had to dispose of: 1. the large shipping package, 2. the enormous (in volume and mass) product plastic shell package, 3. the glossy paper marketing insert inside the package, 4. the user’s manual (!), 5. the unwanted microsd-to-sd adapter. Pr…

The market could fix this if retailers were legally required to publish a searchable packaging database listing the total amount of packaging they use per item sold. Comparisons could be made. Worst offenders singled out. Consumers could force change by having the knowledge to make an informed decision.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#317

Post by fy20 »

gsich wrote: post #236
inglor_cz wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is not so clear-cut with domestic appliances. Modern fridges are much more energy-efficient. So there is a tradeoff: either you buy a new fridge, thus polluting the environment with the old fridge, but saving energy. Or you let your good old 30 year old fridge run, saving the resources needed for a new fridge, but burning a lot more energy in the process.

It's a simple calculation. How much energy costs do I save compared to keeping the old one. Also I wouldn't expect any "modern" appliance to last more than 5 years.

I bought an apartment nearly 5 years ago, and so shortly after that went on the appliance shopping trip. I tried to get what I thought were good quality appliances, and everything is still mostly working ok, but there have been teething problems with everything:

- Bosch Fridge Freeze - a couple of the shelves have broken and I have no idea where to get replacements.

- Bosch Fan Oven - sometimes cuts off if it is left on above 250c for more than 30 mins.

- Bosch Dishwasher - had to take it apart once to clean as some paper got stuck in the impeller.

- Bosch Condenser Dryer - no issues so far, other than not RTFM about the drain hose which needs to be elevated above the unit for some reason.

- Samsung Washing Machine - One day I came in and there was water all over the floor from the washing machine. Took it apart and I could see signs of leaking, but couldn't see anything wrong, after that it worked fine. Recently it starting making a lot of noise on the spin cycle, turned out the feet needed leveling, now it's good as new.

- Electrolux Induction Cooktop - There are some cosmetic issues (stains that won't come off) on the glass.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#318

Post by stretchcat »

varjag wrote: post #212
paradox242 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common things that existed 20, 30, or even 40 years like refrigerators, coffee machines, dishwashers, washers, and dryers, often lasted 10 or 20 years in some cases, and could be repaired. We have witnessed the steep decline of device reliability in my lifetime, and our expectations are so low that the latest appliance we buy we consider lucky if no problems develop in 2-3 years. Anything serious requires you to usua…

About any fridge you buy now would last a decade easily. Several decades even, if you bother to invest into its maintenance and repair like people did 40 years ago.

Getting appliances repaired is harder than it once was. Disposability culture drove many repair shops out of business. Many repair shops I and my family used to are now gone or dying. The guy who used to do sewing machine repairs for my mother is gone. The cobbler that used to repair my boots is gone. Furthermore, appliances that used to come with repair manuals no longer do, and finding the manual online is often a real chore. Fewer people will repair things on their own when manufacturers make it difficult to find even basic documentation.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#319

Post by s1artibartfast »

ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

In addition to the other concerns, I would say the biggest problem would be tracking and recording the time to disposal. Most electronics end up in a drawer somewhere and for tho that don’t, Who is digging through the trash to log them in this scenario

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#320

Post by ashneo76 »

wombatmobile wrote: post #48

I strongly prefer to repair devices and am reluctant to throw any broken manufactured good out, even when I have poor prospects of repairing them. Instead, I just hold on to them. Phones, stereos, vacuum cleaners, clocks, computers. My shelves are full of broken items, and good intentions, frozen in amber. Why do I think like this? I think it is a psychological condition. It isn't a rational choice. If I apply my edu…

I am so in this situation. I love phones. But I haven't bought a new phone in like 3 years. I still use a Nokia N900 and a Nexus 5. My laptop is state of the art from 2010. That thing still flies. For gaming, I got a laptop with eGPU. It is going to to last another 10-15 years. I have so many vga cables, ethernet, nokia phones. They all work. Just change the battery and done.

Manufactured obsolescence is killing us. 2G worked great for things. Those phones had VoIP. I want to get them working with that. Someday...

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