GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked • Hacker News Board

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#721

Post by ballenf » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:43 AM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #190

ballenf wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't the key interrupt or freeze the keypress queue? I don't think you need some advanced async logic to get this right. The only potential downside would be if people expected to be able to cancel the action. But that would be unusual, I think.

As a rule of thumb: if you ever ask "why not", and the alternative you're proposing is more complicated - that is normally why not. Lots of UI/UX bugs can simply be attributed to the programmer taking the most simple possible design. In this case, the async logic is not advanced. In fact, I'm willing to bet that this is what happened: at first, the file-opening was synchronous in the GUI. People complained that openi…

Thanks that makes total sense. And a good rule of thumb for me to remember.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#722

Post by zapzupnz » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

seltzered_ wrote: post #56

Reminds me of a different story involving Bill Gates, toilets, and user interface design: https://web.archive.org/web/20120427101911/http://jacksonfis... "At one particularly frustrating moment, I offered the following: “Bill, a shower, a toilet, and a water fountain all have mechanisms to control water flow, places where the water comes out, some sort of porcelain basin to hold the water, and a drain, but we don’t c…

Great analogy, though. I posted about how macOS’ file picker behaves compared to Windows’ one; this analogy would’ve helped.

When I want to use the bog, I’ll use the bog. When I want to clean my bum, I’ll use a bidet. When I want to wish my hands, I’ll use a hand basin.

The way Windows does it feels like crapping in the bath tub, at least to me. Wrong tool for the job. “If all you have in a hammer” kind of deal.

On the other hand, I’m sure Windows users who defend the mini-Explorer think of it more like using one of those fancy Japanese toilets with a bidet and music player to hide the sound of your ablutions.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#723

Post by colejohnson66 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

sixbrx wrote: post #697

scotty79 wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's "Up one folder" button and keyboard shortcut in Windows. Button is placed next to weblike Back and Forward buttons. It works according to path displayed next to it and you can even click the elements of the path to go up as many levels up as you want with single click. I agree that KDE still feels better though.

That's true but annoylingly it doesn't always take you up one folder. For example If you click it from Desktop, it takes you to the whole PC instead of to your home folder.

Windows (the operating system) does the same thing. If you open your “Documents” folder from your “Quick Links” in the sidebar, going “up” takes you to your Quick Links “folder”.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#724

Post by getitstraight » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 8:13 AM UTC

cycloptic wrote: post #713

stretchcat wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not talking about judging his 'worth as a person'; rather his 'worth as a developer.' Maybe in his private life he's a wonderful person, who knows? Who cares? It is his professional activities that concern people.

You are of course welcome to have an opinion, and to choose whatever product you want based on that opinion. But if the extent of your opinion is "this person is a jerk and their work is terrible and not to my taste" that is unlikely to convince that person to change course, especially if they don't know you and if the decision is already made.

Linux Puttering is not only a talentless programmer, he's a horrible, evil, wicked person, who in a just world should be beaten to death with a claw hammer, or thrown out of the nearest airlock.

This little bastard knows EXACTLY what he is doing to Linux.

You are of course free to make some smart fuck remark in response to this, or "report" the post to the local Gestapo, or whatever other fuck-ass action strikes your fancy.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#725

Post by sfgweilr4f » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #711

sfgweilr4f wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For more information on "Pottering", a random search produced this: https://slated.org/the_poetterisation_of_gnu_linux The more you know.

I've never heard of the term before, I wonder if it's the basis for "puttering" as in "puttering about the house" EDIT: nope, it's more direct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering a connection the article didn't make clear.

I was quoting the parent comment for misspelling "pottering" as "poettering" since I'd not encountered either term.

I'm not sure using someone's surname is such a great idea for this purpose. But I now at least understand why. Also their anger at the added complexity being done to Linux and surrounding structures including but not limited to systemd.

But these structures are still in flux. Even if it means a mess along the way.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#726

Post by getitstraight » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

account42 wrote: post #570

stelonix wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an issue with X11 which I don't know exactly where it comes from and what causes it. Yes, it has to do with the async nature of it all and I agree it's stupid and it's a miracle the desktop even works. Over time, I've been wondering if Windows dodges this simply by having syscalls that interface with window procedures while Xorg deals horribly with it by being pure userland. Another issue is, there's no mappi…

> This is an issue with X11 What makes you think this is the case? X11 has an ordered event queue and there is no reason an application can't process the keystrokes in the correct order. > Another issue is, there's no mapping of pid X11 window. It's simply impossible with the current design of client-server. What do you need this for? There is _NET_WM_PID [0] which can be set by clients. [0] https://specifications.fr…

> 'What makes you think this is the case? X11 has an ordered event queue and there is no reason an application can't process the keystrokes in the correct order.'

Frankly, it is completely fucking unacceptable for software to miss keystrokes or read them out of order. This is basic programming 101. Any code which exhibits such a problem has a shit design and needs to be rebuilt from scratch.

This sort of thing is exactly what drove me away from the mainstream Linux distros, to create my own from scratch. If and when I ever happen to boot up something like Linux Mint and use it, (shudder,) the sluggishness of gnome3/cinnamon/whatever and all the other bloatware running on the system is readily apparent. My system is always FAST and snappy. Input lag or missed keystrokes? Not on your life.

Reading through the HN comments on articles having to do with speed, snappiness, responsivness of a UI, and excessive bloat of software, it occurred to me one day that these kids (here's the root of the problem) don't actually have a clue that things could be any different than they are. And that's why we're stuck here.

They have literally grown up with slow, bloated shitware for their entire lives, so they actually think all the bloat and slowness is normal and necessary.

Notice how the GP blames X11? They grasp for excuses rather than exercising deep thought, while demonstrating low standards, complacency, and laziness. This is what happens when the common masses take over anything. Shallow thinking and low standards prevail.

These kids have a false conception that doing away with the bloat would mean losing a bunch of features. But in reality we could indeed have fast, responsive, light weight systems, with all of the same features and even more, if only programmers cared enough, or were talented enough to write good software.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#727

Post by Chyzwar » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 8:39 AM UTC

stretchcat wrote: post #706

Chyzwar wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people like it. Just because there are old timers that cannot move past gnome 2 it do not mean that Gnome 3 is bad. It faster and more polished that KDE. Workspace management and screen real estate is supierior to anything I used.

I believe the 'graying of GNOME' discussed here a few weeks ago is evidence that fewer and fewer people like GNOME each year. New developers would naturally be drawn from the ranks of enthusiastic users. (Why would a developer volunteer their labor for software they don't use and care about?) The graying of GNOME shows that the pool of enthusiastic users has been shrinking since GNOME 3. That's about when GNOME tippe…

Gnome 3 is default for most popular distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL, Debian etc) If anything gnome is getting more popular thanks to Ubuntu switching.

There fewer people contributing because programming in C is no longer fun or hip. It is not Gnome problem but the whole Linux ecosystem. Gnome is slowly adopting rust but the core framework is still C. There is plenty of active forks of Gnome2 people can contribute there.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#728

Post by franga2000 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

Word of advice from a KDE user: if you go switch, you'll find yourself writing another article just like this one about KIO.

This is just the nature of FOSS. Those that are smart enough to fix it are also smart enough to find a "good enough" workaround - and that requires far less effort than fixing it.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#729

Post by stelonix » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 9:26 AM UTC

getitstraight wrote: post #726

account42 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an issue with X11 What makes you think this is the case? X11 has an ordered event queue and there is no reason an application can't process the keystrokes in the correct order. > Another issue is, there's no mapping of pid X11 window. It's simply impossible with the current design of client-server. What do you need this for? There is _NET_WM_PID [0] which can be set by clients. [0] https://specifications.fr…

> 'What makes you think this is the case? X11 has an ordered event queue and there is no reason an application can't process the keystrokes in the correct order.' Frankly, it is completely fucking unacceptable for software to miss keystrokes or read them out of order. This is basic programming 101. Any code which exhibits such a problem has a shit design and needs to be rebuilt from scratch. This sort of thing is exa…

I'm not a Wayland user and do not plan to be. Instead, it is a criticism of the current abandonment of the Xorg project, which I toy with the code from time to time. I also do not use any DE and use X in the leanest way I can, and I still notice such input lag, whether it's playing games or some gui application seeming to register input at a different x,y position than it was clicked. This does not mean I'm a xorg hater, quite the opposite. Studying the codebase, it seems pretty well written and documented and it proved me the "X is unmaintainable" mantra is a lie. I can elaborate more on other issues of the async & client-server nature of X. I'm not spouting nonsense.

Re: GNOME has no thumbnails in the file picker and my toilets are blocked

#730

Post by imtringued » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #127

utborin wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise you people have gotten this right. I have a 198? Mac Plus on my desk that I can boot up and do this on and it will work properly. I’m having trouble even imagining the insane event-processing architecture that results in keystrokes being processed out of order. Edit: Alright, alright, forget the old computer. My new ones get it right too. All of which is a red herring, because the point is this behavior is…

>I’m having trouble even imagining the insane event-processing architecture that results in keystrokes being processed out of order. It's relatively simple: the picker executes file-opening asynchronously, and only checks which file was selected at some indeterminate point after enter is pressed. In the meantime, the down arrow input in the main GUI changes the selection. The keypresses are always in order. Whether o…

>Whether or not that's the correct decision, it's not an inconceivable design.

It's easy to imagine. Someone kept a variable for the current selection and instead of copying it during the enter event they just read it when the delayed action happens. It often takes time for a second window to open or a page to load. If that new window references the current selection you are going to run into bugs.

It's a design that has caused many video game exploits. You can do impossible things like disassemble a Fat man barrel and put it on a pistol in Fallout. You will get a rocket launcher that has the fire rate of a pistol except it shoots nukes and only uses bullets as ammo.