Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal' • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#391

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

chillfox wrote: post #368

rayiner wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really funny accusation since: 1) We don’t teach any religion in schools. 2) Many highly advanced EU countries are required to teach religion in schools e.g. many German states: https://eftre.weebly.com/deutschland-germany.html

I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should b…

> I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking.

We don't, and we legally cannot.

> I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should believe in.

That is more than is legally permissible in the U.S. And even if people don't perceive the education as saying "this is true" it still socializes kids in a shared religious history and helps them understand the people who still believe it. There is nothing comparable to this in the U.S.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#392

Post by benmmurphy » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #299

nip180 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s quite a step to say all comments with the phrase Stop the steal want to overthrow the government. We, as a society, should be allowed to be very critical of our election process. Stifling discussions about the legitimacy of the election actually reduces my confidence in the election process. I’ve listen to their arguments and I didn’t believe them, but I feel good that people are allowed to do openly que…

I don't think anyone is stopping you from discussing the electoral process. What they are stopping is a specific campaign that transitioned from questioning to violence. The violence is the problem. You have to accept that there is a difference between questioning the results of an election and walking into the Capitol, killing a cop, and wrecking the place up. "The line" on what gets you deplatformed exists somewher…

Can you explain how this rule is meant to work? So if someone supports an idea and then commits violence then discussion of this idea should be removed from the public square. I don't see any evidence that the 'stop the steal' campaign organized the violence in the Capitol. This just seems to be a game of association. A bunch of people who committed illegal violent acts believe X, people using the slogan Y also believe X so any use of slogan Y should be removed from the public square.

It looks like the original reason the 'stop the steal' page was removed from Facebook was for 'misinformation' and now they are blacklisting the slogan because it's associated with 'misinformation' and they also believe that talking about such things causes violence.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#393

Post by tim44 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #289

tim44 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shadow banning is some real underhanded sh#t. On reddit I explained that mayor Pete's M4A wasn't the same M4A as the world understood it. A user immediately responds accusing of me editing my comment to deceive. I say prove it you f#cking liar, there are services that archive. Then I'm hit with the ban for being profane and harassing. Yup, turns out the comment had been very quickly shadow-banned lol. I should have k…

People who use profanity and personal insults tend to heavily degrade the quality of a forum. And when banned, they react angrily and make alternate accounts again and again. A shadowban reduces the incentive to dodge bans via new usernames. Reddit mods don’t have Ip address access or other tools, so shadowbans are a necessary tool. You weren’t banned for speaking contrary to the mainstream. You were banned for insul…

Hey I broke the rules, what can I say. But that wasn't really the point. This is also an interesting take on profanity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13412107

But let me actually amend my comment above here, it wasn't even that bad, the actual words were "lying a#s." I just felt like there was an interaction that didn't need to happen because people see different sets of comments, my original comment being nothing but fact and dry. I don't know how we can talk much about profanity derailing discussion when discussion is so fundamentally broken.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#394

Post by cptnapalm » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:36 AM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #259

cptnapalm wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were loads of reports of thrown explosives in Seattle. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/25/us/seattle-protest-riot/index...

The SPD took a picture of a candle and called it a thrown explosive. They also blamed last week's events on BLM and several officers participated in the Capitol Riot and are on admin leave. There miiiiight be a bit of a bias in that dept.

There have just been mob attacks, hurling explosives, Molotov cocktails and trying to blind people with lasers. Then there were the shootings. Candles do not blow through the wall of a police precinct.

Please provide a link for the officers "participat[ing] in the Capitol Riot". Or is the truth that they are on leave because they attended a protest?

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#395

Post by lucasyvas » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:40 AM UTC

arsome wrote: post #161

Are we really so stupid that we cannot see through this kind of thing and need to actively censor it to have civilized society continue to function? When do we just give up on democracy completely?

The answer is, most likely, yes. Please do not take this statement as malice - I'm an outside observer, but I believe the massive failings of the US education system are well documentated.

There is nothing wrong with conservatism, but for whatever reason there is a strong correlation between the right (at least in the last few years) and poor education.

I'd say most here can probably figure it out. I'm not saying I never get duped, but I can at least spot a total conman when I see one. It would appear many cannot.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#396

Post by bun_at_work » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #318

bun_at_work wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well known that an educated, free people are necessary for the functioning of democracy. It's part of the justification for the 1st Amendment. We have new technologies which are being leveraged to intentionally misinform people, in a society that has degraded public education and raised the cost of higher education to levels prohibitive for the majority of the population, and as a result, the society (as a whol…

Prior to 1950, the median adult American did not have a high school education.[1] If your thesis is that modern-day Americans are too uneducated for democracy, then you'd have to conclude the same about nearly any point in our history. (Or any other democracy prior to a couple decades ago.) [1] https://nces.ed.gov/pubs93/93442.pdf

Actually, my thesis isn't that Americans are too uneducated for democracy. It's that they are being manipulated by modern technology, which education in the US has failed to keep up with, resulting in the age of misinformation and "fake news."

We live in a new era, the most stark difference being mass communication accessibility. This helps smart people become smarter, but it also helps smart people manipulate uneducated people.

My personal thesis on the issues the US is facing involves far more than the systemic defunding of education, but also on economic issues, like how our monetary system has exported labor, leading to a larger class divide and the polarization we're seeing, as well as social media companies (and news companies) having an incentive to promote inflammatory content to generate ad revenue.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#397

Post by bun_at_work » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:46 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #391

chillfox wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presented as reality or something we should b…

> I didn't accuse the US of teaching religion, I accused it of teaching creationism and undermining peoples ability to learn critical thinking. We don't, and we legally cannot. > I know that religion is taught in the EU, I went to school in Denmark. And no one pushed it as reality, it was more of a learn this fiction because it has historically been important and some people still believe it. Not once was it presente…

You're right that religion isn't taught in US schools, however, it is promoted when schools and states work as hard as they can to exclude evolution from public school curriculums. This is effectively teaching the population religion in areas where religion is common and evolution is purged from the school books.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#398

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #384

_ea1k wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> raised the cost of higher education to levels prohibitive for the majority of the population Do you think there was a time when the majority of the population were college educated? Or realistically had access to college education?

1945--1985 was arguably the high point. G.I. Bill and a rapid expansion of public university systems (inspired by the Sputnik scare --- see California's Master Plan by Clark Kerr), along with low or no tuitions. The tide began turning in the mid-to-late 1980s with rising tuition and a greatly increased reliance on loans.

Do you have some charts or data on degrees conferred per year as a percent of the population?

Also, it looks like percent of the population with a degree is higher now than ever.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184272/educational-attai...

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#399

Post by lucasyvas » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #235

arsome wrote: post #161

Are we really so stupid that we cannot see through this kind of thing and need to actively censor it to have civilized society continue to function? When do we just give up on democracy completely?

I completely agree. I would like to see some of the other replies here comment on how democracy can function if the citizens are incompetent/stupid. If they can't be trusted to be knowledgeable, then how can they make informed decisions, including voting? And of course, who decides which people hold legitimate positions and which people are ignorant?

I agree, it can't function. I don't see another solution except:

1. Vastly improved education

2. Smaller governed regions (break up countries more).

I think the first is a given, but the second is because (big surprise) most people don't care to meet the needs of absolutely everyone because it's completely impractical and likely impossible.

Difference of opinion is why countries were formed. I'm amazed borders haven't changed more.

Re: Facebook Says It Is Removing All Content Mentioning 'Stop the Steal'

#400

Post by bun_at_work » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 2:51 AM UTC

rustybelt wrote: post #354

bun_at_work wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well known that an educated, free people are necessary for the functioning of democracy. It's part of the justification for the 1st Amendment. We have new technologies which are being leveraged to intentionally misinform people, in a society that has degraded public education and raised the cost of higher education to levels prohibitive for the majority of the population, and as a result, the society (as a whol…

People are more educated than ever. They are more literate and more have attended at least some college. They also have more access to information than ever before. Either lack of education isn't the problem or it's an impossible standard.

I agree that people are more educated than ever. And more literate. And more college educated. However, they are not more educated on the topics related to the context of this discussion, like how to filter what's seen on social media, or how the government actually works, or economic systems, or most of the things political discussions are made from. Those topics aren't taught effectively in school anymore, at least not in the areas correlated with alt-right extremism.