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Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

telegra.ph

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Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#61

Post by emptysongglass »

snvzz wrote: post #8

The why doesn't matter. (the tl;dr is that they apparently never bothered to support some popular features within the context of e2ee, and believe people ultimately don't care about e2ee by default) What matters is that: - It doesn't do e2ee by default. - It is not a properly documented protocol[0]. - It is not an open protocol. - It has a history of extremely poor cryptography practices[1][2]. - It is not open sourc…

Can you do your research before posting statements like these? They hurt a messenger that has done a great deal of good for protestors and other political rebels.

If I take the kindest interpretation of your statements, they are factually wrong in whole but true in part. That is, the Telegram server code is closed source, yes. But Telegram clients and the protocols they use to "speak" are all either open source or documented where source code isn't applicable (MTProto 2). What's more is that reproducible builds are available for Android and iOS.

There's nothing really wrong with MTProto 2. You appear to be pointing to a very long time ago when MTProto 1 was in use. MTProto 2 is based on standard crypto primitives and is well-documented. No vulnerabilities have been announced by security researchers in the years it's been in use. It is ok that not everyone uses the Signal Protocol. Not everything needs to descend from Moxie.

I run my own Matrix homeserver and it's great. I also have it rolled out to all our employees at my workplace. It's an excellent choice. I also use Telegram because I appreciate its' balance of features and security. All of my family members love Telegram and that makes me happy because they're not using a Facebook product.

The way Matrix handles keys for E2E by default is not great: it's very easy for users to lose the key encryption phrase or not care and throw it away. I'm not sure how much better we can make E2E by default.

I am completely ok with turning on Secret Chats as I need them for chats I know to be disposable. My message history is extremely precious to me and Telegram does an admirable job protecting it and making it searchable for later reference. It truly is a sort of outboard brain for me.

This does not need to be a turf war between Signal people and Telegram people. I have expressed many times on the Telegram subreddit the need to come together in our use of better tools for communication than the incumbents. A person choosing Telegram or Signal over WhatsApp and Discord is a huge win for all of us.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#62

Post by noctua »

rodolphoarruda wrote: post #21

I don't get this: "These backups are not e2e-encrypted and get decrypted whenever(...)" Are they or are they not encrypted?

The chats are encrypted and stored encrypted on the cloud, but they have access to the key. If they didn't have access to the key they couldn't allow some of the functionality that people want like being able to see the chats from different devices. Telegram has secret chats too which are e2e encrypted and don't store anything on the cloud.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#63

Post by t-writescode »

kitkat_new wrote: post #31

Seems they have yet to meet the Matrix Protocol.

Matrix is a protocol. Servers are horrible to set up and you have to find federations to join.

Telegram, Signal and others are centralized, so you join one, you're a member of all.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#64

Post by yatralalala »

meibo wrote: post #3

> 1) Users don’t want to lose their entire message history when they lose/change their phones so apps of this kind never become massively popular. I think this is a key point to consider for Signal and the other "good" messengers - there's ways to do secure backups, it just needs to be implemented so well that you won't miss the convenience of Google Drive backups. I tend to fall back on anecdotes a lot, but the firs…

Wire has backups and is e2e even for groups and all.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#65

Post by codetrotter »

tw04 wrote: post #15
tandav wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this happened to me after iOS -> Android switch all messages was wiped, you cant load icloud backup on android

>you cant load icloud backup on android for free If you're willing to pay for an app, you can definitely do that. https://www.syncios.com/icloud/how-to-recover-data-from-itun... *I'm not advocating for this specific app, I've never used it and couldn't comment on how well it works, just an example*

The only mention of WhatsApp on that page is a link to https://www.syncios.com/whatsapp-transfer/

Not sure if the WhatsApp transfer is a feature of their main product or if it’s sold separately.

Either way I’d use the buy button on the page that is about WhatsApp to be sure, if I was looking to transfer WhatsApp data between iOS and Android.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#66

Post by coolspot »

srhngpr wrote: post #16

Genuine question, and I'm certainly no expert in this - just a curious end-user, aren't the backups that WhatsApp creates and uploads to iCloud/GDrive kind of encrypted? As in, I can't simply download the backup file and access the messages and media? My understanding is that in order to restore/access said messages and media, you would need the SIM/phone number that created the backup file and would have to register…

WhatsApp backup is unencrypted on both iOS/iCloud and Android/GDrive.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#67

Post by pampa »

dochtman wrote: post #50
tandav wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this happened to me after iOS -> Android switch all messages was wiped, you cant load icloud backup on android

I've just spent like 10 hours this week trying to figure out how to get my Android history into iOS. I finally did succeed with one the paid apps, but it's crazy to me that Whatsapp hasn't fixed this (and neither has Signal, by the way).

Paid app is the new perl script!

I wonder why there are paid apps an NO, ZERO information on how to do it with a text editor, some copyaste and javac/xcode. Like DeCSS, from a more civilized age

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#68

Post by yatralalala »

pmlnr wrote: post #20
snvzz wrote: post #8

The why doesn't matter. (the tl;dr is that they apparently never bothered to support some popular features within the context of e2ee, and believe people ultimately don't care about e2ee by default) What matters is that: - It doesn't do e2ee by default. - It is not a properly documented protocol[0]. - It is not an open protocol. - It has a history of extremely poor cryptography practices[1][2]. - It is not open sourc…

I've been exploring options with a friend, their requirements: 1) option for large groups (around 250) This drops Signal out which has a limit of 150 on groups: https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007319331-Gr... 2) e2e encrypted (because it sounds good, not because people actually understand what it is), including groups. This drops Telegram out: no e2e rooms. 3) handles sending photos, videos, and voice…

Have you heard about Wire? Groups up to 500, when they switch to MLS protocol then thousands, e2e, Swiss based and it has kind of ok UI.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#69

Post by Voline »

Ashanmaril wrote: post #42
snvzz wrote: post #8

The why doesn't matter. (the tl;dr is that they apparently never bothered to support some popular features within the context of e2ee, and believe people ultimately don't care about e2ee by default) What matters is that: - It doesn't do e2ee by default. - It is not a properly documented protocol[0]. - It is not an open protocol. - It has a history of extremely poor cryptography practices[1][2]. - It is not open sourc…

>It doesn't do e2ee by default. I read the article and he claims it does? It's just that the default uses their cloud backup where Telegram has access to the private keys.

If Telegram has access to the keys it is not e2e. People who like to play fast and loose with the definition of end-to-end encryption are not to be trusted. Looking at you Zoom.

Re: Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default (2017)

#70

Post by pmlnr »

yatralalala wrote: post #68
pmlnr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been exploring options with a friend, their requirements: 1) option for large groups (around 250) This drops Signal out which has a limit of 150 on groups: https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007319331-Gr... 2) e2e encrypted (because it sounds good, not because people actually understand what it is), including groups. This drops Telegram out: no e2e rooms. 3) handles sending photos, videos, and voice…

Have you heard about Wire? Groups up to 500, when they switch to MLS protocol then thousands, e2e, Swiss based and it has kind of ok UI.

> has kind of ok UI

It has a single UI, so it's out. Wire specifically disallows anything 3rd party.

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