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YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

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Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#921
post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't help but notice you didn't answer this: >Just out of curiosity who is their equivalent person on the left?

It’s funny how that never gets answered... I really am befuddled at the inability of people to avoid beng taken in by bad faith arguments like this.

Choose any person who is placed in position where they speak on behalf of the Democrat side of the aisle.

It is exceedingly difficult to understand your position that this represent a 'bad faith argument'.

The comparison is one comparing the role played. It not a comparison of one's opinion of the person playing the role.

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#922
post #240

I read things like this and it really makes me sad. I don’t agree with Steve Bannon or Rudy Giuliani on a lot of things. I also don’t agree with their equivalent person on the left. In fact I am skeptical of most “career politicians”. I really wish we could switch what politics is about. Currently we (meaning news channels and Twitter/internet folk) want to dunk on the other tribe and show them how wrong and stupid t…

Do you believe in their right to incite violence like beheadings from Steve Bannon and ransacking the Capitol by Giuliani? Because that's what they've been doing. Maybe these were all "symbolic" pronouncements by them, but I sort of doubt it, I think they just didn't have the cajones for it and preferred to see some poor dupes go execute on it so they could disavow them later.

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Adam Schiff, whose lie that he had seen "more than circumstantial evidence" of Trump-Russia collusion was the cornerstone of the case for a Special Council?[0] We got a two year investigation into the question of collusion... which found no such evidence: "The special counsel found that Russia did interfere with the election, but “did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired…

People are able to evaluate bias in others and propaganda they disagree with far better than their own biases and propaganda they agree with. No person or group should have the power to decide on their own what is "true"

>> 'No person or group should have the power to decide on their own what is "true"'

And yet, the vast majority of adult human beings do this everyday, multiple times per day, without any regard for whether others think they should or not.

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#924
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protesting racial injustice (peacefully) is absolutely required. Claiming such protests are "violent mobs" is nothing new: https://twitter.com/BerniceKing/status/1300196044693741574/p... Also note that some of the violence was instigated by the police: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/26/opinion/blm-p... OTOH mobs in DC, Michigan were motivated by "masks=slavery" & "election fraud" both of which are comple…

Protesting electoral fraud is also absolutely required, even if I am extremely extremely sceptical that it actually happened. Some of the protests that happened in the civil rights movement were indeed violent although this has been rather aggressively whitewashed in government approved public school classes meant to teach students the way to affect real change is to stand around with signs and sing songs and have ra…

> Protesting electoral fraud is also absolutely required

Sure, if it were real.

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#925
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also don’t agree with their equivalent person on the left. Just out of curiosity who is their equivalent person on the left? > Can’t we all try to find consensus and compromise? What consensus and compromise do you want when the President of the US wants to "find" the votes or when calls the rioters good people and we love you?

How about Adam Schiff, whose lie that he had seen "more than circumstantial evidence" of Trump-Russia collusion was the cornerstone of the case for a Special Council?[0] We got a two year investigation into the question of collusion... which found no such evidence: "The special counsel found that Russia did interfere with the election, but “did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired…

I swear people here haven't even read the Mueller Report and the Senate Intel Report on this matter. For example, the quote you used came from the Mueller Report. Why did you cite a press article about it? Because what you actually cited was a summary from AG Barr which I think (and I'm not the only one, see below) intentionally and misleadingly left out the first part of that sentence. Here is the full sentence, emphasis added on the part you left out.

"Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."[1]

Note, "collusion" and "conspiracy" are different things. Conspiracy is used in the legal sense here and requires a meeting of the minds between Trump and the Russian Government (i.e. Putin). That didn't happen, and even some of the most ardent pushers of the collusion idea didn't believe that happened. But collusion is a more nebulous term (not a legal term) that, for many, was used to indicate a tacit agreement between the two groups to arrive at a mutual goal - electing Trump. That is absolutely what happened. When we say there was "collusion" and you point out there was no "conspiracy", therefore we are wrong, that's a straw man.

Also note that while this says the investigation did not establish the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russians, this is not entirely accurate. Trump did put out public statements to the Russians (famously "Russia, if you're listening"), and the Mueller report found that, in fact, there was direct response from Russian hackers to that call in the form of attempted hacks on Hillary Clinton. The Special Counsel didn't consider that "coordination" because it was in public, but.... I mean the evidence is there.

A final note, there is stark difference between "the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign..." and "the investigation established that members of the Trump Campaign did not...". The former is not a conclusive statement. You seem to be basing your opinions as if the report contains the latter statement.

Remember, Bill Barr put out the second half of that sentence and held back the full Mueller Report from the press so that part would cycle around to news orgs and people would repeat it ad infinitum. A federal judge characterized Bill Barr's summary and public statements as a "misleading" and "lacking candor" (so when you repeat what the AG did by leaving out the first half of that sentence, which really changes the tone and impression left on readers, perhaps take note of how this reflects on you).

"The speed by which Attorney General Barr released to the public the summary of Special Counsel Mueller’s principal conclusions, coupled with the fact that Attorney General Barr failed to provide a thorough representation of the findings set forth in the Mueller Report, causes the Court to question whether Attorney General Barr’s intent was to create a one-sided narrative about the Mueller Report — a narrative that is clearly in some respects substantively at odds with the redacted version of the Mueller Report"

"The inconsistencies between Attorney General Barr’s statements, made at a time when the public did not have access to the redacted version of the Mueller Report to assess the veracity of his statements, and portions of the redacted version of the Mueller Report that conflict with those statements cause the Court to seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt to influence public discourse about the Mueller Report in favor of President Trump despite certain findings in the redacted version of the Mueller Report to the contrary." [2]

Remember, this is a person who has seen more of the report than you or I have, and he seems to think what Bill Barr wrote is "substantively" inconsistent with what's written behind those black boxes.

Oh, and the other thing you left out is the entire second half of the Mueller report. The first half concludes that the investigation was incomplete due to obstruction from the Trump campaign in the form of lying, destruction of evidence, witness tampering, dangling pardons, and trying to fire the investigators themselves. You can't cite the Mueller Report as a conclusive authority without also acknowledging the Trump campaign and Trump specifically obstructed the investigation repeatedly.

> Many of you in this thread likely still believe the lie that Trump colluded with the Russians.

Can you blame us? The Republican lead Senate released a report which shows that Trump Campaign manager was funneling internal campaign data to a Russian Intelligence Officer [3], while the GRU were busy hacking Trump's opponents. The Mueller report showed that Trump's family was meeting with a Russian spy at Trump's home and Trump lied about it. We also learned from Michael Cohen that Trump was attempting to build a Trump Tower Moscow with a penthouse dedicated to Vladimir Putin, and Trump lied about that as well after telling us he had 0 business in Russia and his campaign had 0 contacts with Russians (there were over 100 contacts). What conclusion are people supposed to draw?

As soon as this bit of info from the Republican lead Senate Intelligence Committee gets cleared up, I'd love to hear how the Trump campaign was completely innocent in 2016:

> The Senate Intelligence Committee assessed that Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services" was a "grave counterintelligence threat". The foremost individual was Manafort's employee Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian. The committee identified Kilimnik as a "Russian intelligence officer"; describing that Manafort and Kilimnik had a "close and lasting relationship" even through the 2016 election. Manafort repeatedly tried to "secretly share internal Campaign information with Kilimnik", including "sensitive internal polling data or Campaign strategy".

> The Senate Intelligence Committee introduced a new allegation regarding Kilimnik, that he "may have been connected" to the Russian military intelligence's hack and leak of Democratic Party material. However, the report's discussions on this topic are redacted. Manafort's connection with the Russian hack and leak operation is "largely unknown", but possible, given "two pieces of information" the committee found; the details of such information were also redacted. [4]

[1] https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2019/images/04/18/mueller-report-sea... (The actual Mueller Report)

[2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6796353-barr-ruling....

[3] Senate Intelligence Committee report on Russian interference in the 2016 United States presidential election, Volume V.

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_...

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#926

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can’t we all try to find consensus and compromise? Can you explain the compromise possible between "fighting the COVID 19 death toll should be based on science" and "Fauci should be beheaded"?

> Can you explain the compromise possible between "fighting the COVID 19 death toll should be based on science" and "Fauci should be beheaded"? Replacing Fauci with someone more scientific and less political would probably qualify.

So your meet in the middle position is, just to be clear, that terrorists get to dictate the makeup of the civil service by threatening to murder anyone they don't like?

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#927
post #240

I read things like this and it really makes me sad. I don’t agree with Steve Bannon or Rudy Giuliani on a lot of things. I also don’t agree with their equivalent person on the left. In fact I am skeptical of most “career politicians”. I really wish we could switch what politics is about. Currently we (meaning news channels and Twitter/internet folk) want to dunk on the other tribe and show them how wrong and stupid t…

It's totally reasonable to be sad about this. It pattern matches to a loss of free speech, and when society sees free speech being violated, it should evoke strong emotions (hopefully even more severe than sadness). This is not, however, a violation of free speech, even if you believe in the general concept that a private company should allow dissenting opinions on its platform. This user has violated the "yelling fi…

The Atlantic: It's Time to Stop Using the 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' Quote

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are able to evaluate bias in others and propaganda they disagree with far better than their own biases and propaganda they agree with. No person or group should have the power to decide on their own what is "true"

>> 'No person or group should have the power to decide on their own what is "true"' And yet, the vast majority of adult human beings do this everyday, multiple times per day, without any regard for whether others think they should or not.

Yes, I should have appended "... for others"

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#929
post #671
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just consider the birther gaslighting, or everything else.

people forget the dominionist gaslighting of Sarah Palin. Pretty much every republican is seen as mini hitler these days-the shit that was said about George Bush Jr for example.

The criticisms of those people were about what they said and did though, not who they are. That is not gaslighting but speaking back at power.

Re: YouTube bans Steve Bannon's podcast channel

#930
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the 99% are doing an awfully bad job at telling their peers they are wrong.

> Then the 99% are doing an awfully bad job at telling their peers they are wrong. That's actually very common these days. The mainstream has no control over the fringe. In a similar vein, when anarchists in Portland tried to burn down the Federal courthouse, there was silence from much of the Democrat political establishment.

The context around a lot of riots from the summer sits in my head pretty heavily. I don't like seeing rioting and vandalism as much as the next person, but I also recognize where it came from. I'm having a tough time reconciling the capitol storming in the same manner. The only similar emotion I have is pity toward people who were clearly lied to and who have insulated themselves from rational thought.

To be clear I don't ever want to see guns or explosives at a protest, nor do I want to see riots, but I also understood the anger last summer and found it difficult to condemn it when the people most affected were at their wit's end. I get the sense that last week's protestors were in a similar mindset, but their reasoning was highly flawed and easily debunked.

I'm sure anyone coming at this from a different perspective would see my view as hypocritical and I recognize that, but there's a feeling in my heart I can't shake about what happened last summer when it came to police brutality, one that can't easily be broken by a whataboutism.

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