Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released • Hacker News Board

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#131

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:10 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #129

bdamm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is... who else would decide? Isn't it the function of the state to make decisions based on information that is not available to the general public?

No-one. No-one would decide. It's not a decision that needs to be made. Any history of sexual abuse -> be put on a register that prohibits ever working with children again.

We currently have a registry for that sort of thing, and public urination can get you put on it.

So your answer appears to be that the state decides, since they decide what constitutes sexual abuse.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#132

Post by jawzz » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

ge96 wrote: post #55

I got mad lucky in college, I was in a parking lot arrested for possession (was smoking) it was a tiny amount like a keyfob worth. It was reduced to a parking fine that I had to pay in court. That could have destroyed me (permanent label) if that was bigger. This was like 8-10 years ago. I am asian if it matters.

Has the record of arrest (and charge, if you were initially charged with possession before it was reduced) affected you at all, to your knowledge?

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#133

Post by ativzzz » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

antattack wrote: post #37

Many of my colleagues and I voted for legalization of Marijuana, because law had vilified it to the point where actions against users did not justify the means at all. That, plus good outcome of drug decriminalization in Portugal.

Decriminalization works when you have many organizations provide high quality rehabilitation programs, and are non-profit. See [1].

However, IMO the U.S. healthcare infrastructure and general profiteering culture will not allow any reasonable programs at high enough scale to operate.

Ideally, instead of jailing drug offenders, we reintegrate them into society. This is expensive. Somebody needs to pay for it, and nobody wants to. Especially when you have the for-profit prison industry lobbying against it.

Decriminalization without a comprehensive plan to deal with drug addiction will most likely not achieve the expected results. We'll probably get something like the opioid epidemic on a larger scale.

The U.S. just does not do a good job of dealing with mental health.

[1] https://craftsmanship.net/portugals-path-to-breaking-drug-ad...

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#134

Post by oldmaninsj » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #104

aaomidi wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The call to end prisons, police funding, and prison funding is partially to solve this exact problem. I don't think ANYONE should be able to request a federal background check. I don't think background checks should be allowed for employment or housing. Same as credit checks. A person is either safe enough to be in society, or not. There should NEVER be an in between state. And before you say anything: 1. Yes I am fi…

> 2. Yes I'm fine with sexual predators living in the same building as me. Teaching my children. And being my co-worker. For the same aforementioned reasons. I am parent and I understand what you mean here and It makes complete sense to me. But I am having a little hard time with this, some part of my brain just wont' accept it.

I am a parent and I would have a problem with a sexual predator being anywhere near my kids.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#135

Post by quotemstr » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #107

quotemstr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Any form of science cannot tell us what should or should not be done. Science informs our choices. It doesn't make them.

How the heck is this comment downvoted? The is-ought gap is unpopular here? HNs username must be Sam Harrises biggest fans...

It's not that the is-ought gap is unpopular: it's that the gap doesn't even make it into the debate. We're dealing with an epistemic regime in which it's acceptable to engineer desired "ought" outcomes by controlling who gets to make statements about what "is". That is, is no "is" independent from power dynamics, oppressor and oppressed. "Is", in this model, is just another form of narrative that serves the powerful.

In this world, you should expect downvotes for arguing that science informs us about objective reality, because people of a certain mindset see scientific results that contradict their worldview as just another form of oppressive discourse intended to subjugate the powerless. To them, science is just one of many equal and arbitrary forms of rhetoric and power gaming.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#136

Post by quotemstr » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

snet0 wrote: post #22

quotemstr wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Any form of science cannot tell us what should or should not be done. Science informs our choices. It doesn't make them.

While I agree with the fundamental, the is-ought divide, I think this paper is basically saying "based on a load of measurements that are obviously goals of our society, criminalisation of drug offences is acting against our own interests".

If the authors were striving for objectivity, they'd skip discussion of values and interests entirely and talk solely about what effect drug policies had on certain quantifiable metrics --- all in a factual and dispassionate way.

A scientific paper is a report on the state of reality and should not contain a case for any sort of action.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#137

Post by SkyBelow » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

rwmurrayVT wrote: post #7

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs,…

>The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation.

Do people generally want rehabilitation?

I find that when I talk to people, they want rehabilitation for minor crimes and retribution for major crimes, but when feel comfortable enough with talking about it, they generally don't want the minor crimes to be illegal to begin with. Once you get them to discuss the group they actually want in prison, it tends to consist of people they retribution against.

Try asking people what is a crime that deserve 2 years of prison, give or take a year. I find few are able to place crimes into that window, even though 2 years is plenty of time to rehabilitation people if one was actively working at it.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#138

Post by MisterTea » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #54

cubano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know ple…

The call to end prisons, police funding, and prison funding is partially to solve this exact problem. I don't think ANYONE should be able to request a federal background check. I don't think background checks should be allowed for employment or housing. Same as credit checks. A person is either safe enough to be in society, or not. There should NEVER be an in between state. And before you say anything: 1. Yes I am fi…

> 1. Yes I am fine with previously convicted murderers living in the same building as me. Teaching my children. And being my co-worker. I want to be able to trust the "justice" system to allow people back into society when they're able to.

I was talking to my friend over the weekend and a funny story came up. My friend is a chess player and made friends with an elderly gentleman at a local starbucks over a game of chess. They became chess buddies and played many games and my friend even visited his house to play a games after the man developed a severe joint disease and had difficulty moving.

It turns out he was playing chess with Nicholas “Nicky No Socks” Facciolo a convicted mobster and murder who learned and fell in love with chess while in jail. My friend told me that after learning that he continued to play with Nicky until he could no longer play due to his disease. He never felt threatened or uncomfortable. As far as he was concerned Nicky paid his debts and was no longer the person he was.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#139

Post by throwaway0a5e » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #119

mumblemumble wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. I count myself blessed to have opportunities when I came home. I'm so happy to hear that you had that. A while back, a member of my community was not so lucky. He got caught with an ounce of pot, spent some time in prison. When he got out, he had no legitimate job prospects due to his criminal record. He did eventually a job, though, through netw…

Why do these people stay in the US? In Europe if you say that you were imprisoned for smoking pot, people will just laugh at the situation, because it’s so hard to believe.

If you have a criminal record bad enough to cause employment problems in the US it's going to be as hard or harder to (legally) start residing in most first world countries, especially if you don't have a party in-country who's basically importing you to do some specific work.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#140

Post by ImprobableTruth » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #54

cubano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know ple…

The call to end prisons, police funding, and prison funding is partially to solve this exact problem. I don't think ANYONE should be able to request a federal background check. I don't think background checks should be allowed for employment or housing. Same as credit checks. A person is either safe enough to be in society, or not. There should NEVER be an in between state. And before you say anything: 1. Yes I am fi…

I don't understand what policy you would want in regards to sexual predators. The recidivism rate for pedophiles is e.g. 14% after 5 years, 24% after 15 years.

Does that mean we should just lock them up forever? Or do you really think having someone like that live next to children is a necessary gamble?