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Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

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Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#51

Post by FDSGSG »

xadhominemx wrote: post #12
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #7

Driving someone to suicide because they acted against entrenched copyright interests was one of the most DoJ moments ever.

Aaron already suffered from severe mental illness - law enforcement did not drive him to suicide. Prosecutors offered him a plea deal if he took a six month sentence in a low security facility, which he turned down before killing himself. 99.9% of people his age would not end up dead by their own hands in that situation.

Actually he was offered even less, 4 months.

http://volokh.com/2013/01/16/the-criminal-charges-against-aa...

>The alternative sentence to consider is what Swartz would have received if he had agreed to plead guilty. According to Swartz’s lawyers, the prosecutors in the case offered two different pleas. First, they would agree to a sentence of four months if Swartz agreed to plead guilty to the felonies. And second, they could agree to a deal in which Swartz agreed to plead guilty, the government would argue for a 6 month sentence, and Swartz could argue for a lesser sentence (presumably including probation). In all likelihood, the judge would have then sentenced Swartz to 4 months under the 1st plea and whatever the judge thought appropriate, up to 6 months, under the second plea.

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#52

Post by rex_lupi »

> "We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world. We need to take stuff that's out of copyright and add it to the archive. We need to buy secret databases and put them on the Web. We need to download scientific journals and upload them to file sharing networks. We need to fight for Guerilla Open Access." - The Guerrila Open Access Manifesto by Aaron Swartz: https://openbehavioralscience.org/manifesto

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#54

Post by vlovich123 »

xadhominemx wrote: post #42
_jal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99.9% of people were not him. > law enforcement did not drive him to suicide People can keep repeating this, and it will still be false. LEO and Prosecutor action was the proximate cause of his actions. You can make moral arguments that, say, the prosecutor was Just Doing His Job, and I may even agree with you. But you and everyone else are simply wrong about cause and effect, and attempting to blur that tells me mor…

Aaron’s story is good example of why blaming the suicide of someone with severe depression on whatever proximate cause triggered the act is the wrong way to understand why someone takes their own life. Many suicides are prompted by trivial or very temporary situations that are not at fault.

That presumed that the whole trial wasn’t the cause of the mental issues. I’m sure that facing an immoral DOJ out for blood caused him a lot of stress and depression (or triggered any latent issues).

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#55

Post by Nextgrid »

xadhominemx wrote: post #12
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #7

Driving someone to suicide because they acted against entrenched copyright interests was one of the most DoJ moments ever.

Aaron already suffered from severe mental illness - law enforcement did not drive him to suicide. Prosecutors offered him a plea deal if he took a six month sentence in a low security facility, which he turned down before killing himself. 99.9% of people his age would not end up dead by their own hands in that situation.

The whole concept of plea deals is insane (but then again, so is the concept of "justice" in the US) and it's sad to see it being defended here.

Sidestepping the issue of the severity of his crime, the concept of "plead guilty to X and waive your rights to a fair trial" or go to a trial which is made unfair by trumped up charges (thus increasing the corresponding sentence by orders of magnitude) almost as revenge for exercising your right to a trial doesn't sound like justice to me. Either someone is guilty and the state can prove it (and is willing to expend resources to do so) or he isn't - nobody should be forced to make such a choice.

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#56

Post by SirSourdough »

xadhominemx wrote: post #36
spijdar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually feel some sympathy for both positions here. On the one hand, it's such a "no brainer" to take such a light sentence for what is legally such a "serious crime". On the other hand, though, it feels ridiculous that Aaron would have been put in jail at all for what he did. I think it's fair to say he wasn't in a good place, but it's maybe a little tone deaf to say the grief of the trial and prosecution had no…

Of course it had a role in his suicide, but no person who was not already very mentally ill would have ended their life in that situation. The narrative that prosecutors wanted to effectively ruin his life for his criminal offenses is just wrong.

They were threatening him with 50 years in jail and a million in fines or accepting an immoral (to him, and as a more broadly held belief of many) punishment with no opportunity to defend himself and the prospect of a lifelong record of serious crimes.

How is that not an effort to ruin someone’s life?

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#57

Post by Jtsummers »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #27
xadhominemx wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was offered a 6 month sentence in a low security prison. He could have served that sentence before the trial was even set to begin and resumed his life as programmer and activist. He was not murdered, he suffered from severe mentally illness.

Well, if they knew so much else about him, maybe they should have been aware of his illness and appropriately (ie Justly) addressed the situation rather than making an example of him.

> maybe they should have been aware of his illness and appropriately (ie Justly) addressed the situation rather than making an example of him.

While I don't think Aaron Swartz should've been prosecuted (or at least not charged with everything they did), this statement in general is not the job of the prosecutors. If it were, then many charges would have to be dropped/reduced in the case of people with mental illness (where it's not considered part of the defense proper) or other medically compromised individuals. That's kind of an absurd position to take. If X suffers from clinical depression, but has committed (or is accused of committing) some serious crime, should the charges be reduced or the sentence reduced based on these circumstances? Or should they be charged and considered the same as anyone else would be for the same crimes?

This reeks of the same kind of abuse of prosecution as the affluenza case.

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#58

Post by cbozeman »

webXL wrote: post #48
cbozeman wrote: post #10

Although Aaron made enormous contributions to many different technologies, I often think of reddit when I think of Aaron. I often wonder how he would feel, not just about censorship there, but about the direction the entire Internet has taken in regards to censoring of content. I can't - and wouldn't - speak for him, but I would be supremely interested in his thoughts.

Aaron seemed very opposed to large corporations and their control of information. The increase of control seems to be timed and in favor with the incoming administration. Government using business to do its bidding is very troubling, and I'm sure Aaron would have been very concerned about that. Remember, this increase of power can be wielded by the next populist leader and there are plenty of dark possibilities outsi…

I've often spoken with my more left-leaning friends about the need to try and find middle ground with my more right-leaning friends, and quickly.

Donald Trump was an incompetent, by almost any measure you want to use. However, he shifted the Overton Window dramatically. When the Republican version of Barack Obama bursts onto the scene - someone eloquent, competent, and thoroughly able to move effectively in the political sphere, there could be a very real problem for Democrats.

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#59

Post by krspykrm »

tylersmith wrote: post #43
cies wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence I reflect on this as murder by the state. It happened before (like Gary Webb), and sadly I'm afraid it will happen again. They (govt) seems more interested in big corp's needs than people's needs. This democracy-thing is a big lie, a facade. RIP Aaron.

> This democracy-thing is a big lie Do you think a majority of the US opposes copyright and would not want the State to enforce it? I'm in that group, but it seems to me the overwhelming majority of people here support copyright laws and prosecutions.

The overwhelming majority don't have any epistemic basis for what they believe and are just saying what they think is socially-acceptable to say.

Re: Tell HN: Aaron Swartz died today, 8 years ago

#60

Post by caminante »

xadhominemx wrote: post #12
WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #7

Driving someone to suicide because they acted against entrenched copyright interests was one of the most DoJ moments ever.

Aaron already suffered from severe mental illness - law enforcement did not drive him to suicide. Prosecutors offered him a plea deal if he took a six month sentence in a low security facility, which he turned down before killing himself. 99.9% of people his age would not end up dead by their own hands in that situation.

I appreciate your perspective.

This is a memorial thread with a bias to grieving and celebrating Aaron. By making your points, others appear to assume you're criticizing him for taking his life (which is not your intent or how I perceive your stance).

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