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Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

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Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#61

Post by FpUser »

cubano wrote: post #35
rwmurrayVT wrote: post #7

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs,…

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know ple…

What you describe make my blood boil. I cant imaging what is the purpose of punishing people to the end of their days for old crimes however petty they were. Fucking prison planet.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#62

Post by khawkins »

mcphage wrote: post #40
khawkins wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only a utilitarian ethical argument. If people approach from a deontological perspective, the measurements may not matter. Suggesting a policy prescription in the title of a scientific study puts the legitimacy of the study in complete question. The researchers must approach the question as one which can be falsifiable, else it's not science.

> Suggesting a policy prescription in the title of a scientific study puts the legitimacy of the study in complete question. Does it? > The researchers must approach the question as one which can be falsifiable, else it's not science. Isn't that what this study was—they had a hypothesis which they wished to test: "We should do X." Then they did whatever they reported in their paper, and found that their hypothesis wa…

A policy prescription requires weighing of values, which a scientist should avoid at all costs. It's quite literally the point of science, to understand how the world works without injecting your personal biases about how the world should work.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#63

Post by BikiniPrince »

azinman2 wrote: post #44
at_a_remove wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It needs a little more nuance, especially the plea bargaining. And on top of that, prosecutors are known to pile on tons of only vaguely-applicable, probably-not-convictable charges just to get someone to plea bargain down, so that complicates even the plea bargain exception. I'll throw in another part where more fine-grained control would be nice: the amount of said substances is measured by gross weight, b…

And what about trafficking 100kg of heroin? Everyone likes to pick the seemingly trivial examples to justify liberal values on jailing (“what if the 3rd strike is stealing a loaf of bread!”) but the reality is there are a broad range of crimes by a broad range of people. That’s why we have judges and give them latitude.

I think in there case of something like Acid the weight can be an incorrect measure of substance.

I heard it was popular to use the old books of stamps. So five doses on a stamp book is a silly about of weight. Then over a certain weight it is considered distribution and boom the sentence is jumped. Thanks to the war on drugs I’m not sure how much can even be reasoned by a judge.

Now, keep in mind, I’m not necessarily on the side of no more crimes. I do see the cracks in how the offenses wer e codified.

Things like marijuana outside distribution should probably be ignored. I was horrified watching someone on a cop show get arrested for a roach they found nearby on the ground. This was also a person who was strolling through a walkway in the forest between residences.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#64

Post by MajorBee »

iridium_core wrote: post #10

Just legalise all drugs and let the free market decide. We could create innovative new substances which are safer and less socially damaging, compared to the plants and fermented liquids we happen to have stumbled upon millenia ago.

Well, cigarettes used to be all "free market" right from marketing to technology for quite some time, and we all know how that particular industry ended up.

There are certain things that just seem to be a net-loss to society, no matter how much it may clash on an individual's right to destroy themselves. Cigarettes, hard drugs (and possibly even alcohol) seem to be among them.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#65

Post by greatgirl »

oytis wrote: post #5

A study (if it's a real study) can't tell you what should be done, it should give you new knowledge about the state of affairs. (while I agree that drug offense should be decriminalized).

Eh, plenty of studies I've seen, from economics to environmental science, has some policy recommendations at the end. It's a problem but if you're going to discard this study you have to discard many others.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#66

Post by mumblemumble »

rwmurrayVT wrote: post #7

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs,…

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. I count myself blessed to have opportunities when I came home.

I'm so happy to hear that you had that.

A while back, a member of my community was not so lucky. He got caught with an ounce of pot, spent some time in prison. When he got out, he had no legitimate job prospects due to his criminal record. He did eventually a job, though, through networking. In this case, the network was some prison acquaintances - apparently the only people who would/could offer him an opportunity. A while later he got caught stealing cars for a chop shop. Rinse and repeat.

I don't think I really understood it until I saw it with my own eyes: the US criminal justice system, by being so retributive, isn't just (wantonly, excessively) harming people who get caught. It's also a significant cause of US crime in the first place.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#67

Post by SubuSS »

clairity wrote: post #24
rwmurrayVT wrote: post #7

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs,…

thanks for relating your incarceration story. with the benefit of hindsight, 'tough on crime' was plainly power exerting itself on the populace to enhance its own esteem, not an exercise in creating a more just society. let's cut every sentence (and sentencing guidelines) by 90% right off the bat and use the savings for better rehabilitation programs (like more support systems, instructional content, and training pro…

I can sympathize with how this will work out for non-career criminals.

How do you see this working out for repeat offenders? Seattle today has a mini-version of this FWIW: We have offenders who have 44+ counts of 'minor' arrests and a felony conviction on the street [1] getting involved in public shootings.

Overall I like the part where folks who have paid their dues get their life back through a measured re-introduction back into regular society (from jail). Even over here, we will need oversight from professionals who have insight into both the worlds who can help with the transition. I don't think commuting sentences by 90% is the answer.

[1] https://komonews.com/news/local/who-are-the-alleged-downtown...

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#68

Post by greatgirl »

avsteele wrote: post #58

While I agree with the conclusion. People tend to overestimate the fraction of people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses. It is only ~15% https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

That's about where i expected it to be actually, and that's about 200k people, so it's pretty bad.

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#69

Post by quietbritishjim »

avsteele wrote: post #60
avsteele wrote: post #58

While I agree with the conclusion. People tend to overestimate the fraction of people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses. It is only ~15% https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

And I'm assuming they mean incarcerated (jail+prison) and not just 'jail'. Most of the people in jail are awaiting trial, people in prison have been convicted.

The article linked in the comment you're replying to seems to include both jail and prison. The comment itself didn't mention either and just said "incarcerated".

Re: Study: All non-violent criminals jailed on minor drug offence should be released

#70

Post by derekp7 »

BikiniPrince wrote: post #43
cubano wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know ple…

I’m getting out of tech by 55. Maybe I won’t go insane in a smaller shop, but watching everyone without experience commit the same atrocities over and over is like hell. After a remodel I learned how lucrative cabinet makers have it. I started building my wood working shop a while ago and at some I’ll transition to that. I’ve got some growing and I have a lucrative position, but this battery is about depleted.

One thing about woodworking is that parts of it are easier for someone who has had a career in thinking logically and several steps ahead. If you also have had experience laying out user interfaces, that can help too. However there is the flip side, in that a number of techniques in woodworking aren't easily discoverable unless you've been working in the field for a while, and it is all too easy to get hurt (even when not using power equipment). I personally love doing projects, but on every single one I end up getting some sort of injury (typically something small like a splinter under the fingernail, or a tool slipping causing an abrasion on my hand, but annoying none the less).

But you are right, in that there can be a good bit of coin to be had with furniture building, especially if you can draw on some standardized design principles to output good customized pieces. Think things like a closet organizer that is "perfect" for a customer's bedroom. Or things like cranking out desks needed by students doing school from home.

In fact, I probably could have made a killing in selling "pandemic" desks (there were absolutely no desks to be found at the beginning of the school year). I made a couple for family members, made out of real hard wood (no partical board) for about $130 in lumber and connecting hardware -- nice 3-drawer desk units. I basically used rail-and-stile frames to make the back, sides, and drawer box using pocket screws, then 1/4 inch plywood tacked from the inside of the drawer box. Took about 3 hours to cut, drill, and assemble everything but the drawers themselves. If I was out of work I probably would have made a bunch and sold them for $350 a piece.

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