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St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

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Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#111

Post by Ichthypresbyter »

spoonjim wrote: post #109
galaxyLogic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trappists make great beer right? It is strong beer and gets your head messed up. I've often wondered how such good religious folks would become producers of alcoholic drinks. I assume they didn't drink themselves, doesn't go well with meditation I assume. So are they more like thinking "Let the sinners drink this since they want, and it will pay for the rent of our meditation chambers?"

There is no general religious proscription against alcohol. Only Muslims and Mormons come to mind.

There are some Protestant denominations who don't drink alcohol, including many Baptist and Presbyterian groups as well as the Seventh-Day Adventists and the Salvation Army.

While some Methodists now drink alcohol, they historically didn't and still won't allow it in their church buildings (I used to play in an amateur orchestra who had to serve non-alcoholic interval refreshments when we hired a Methodist church for our concert).

The majority of Christians worldwide, though, belong to denominations with no proscription against alcohol.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#112

Post by wolfhumble »

idclip wrote: post #100

Strong dhamma - thank you. I frequent budhist monasteries myself - i see how all prophets are indeed one, and how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer finally takes away our anger and hurt to open that door which cannot be closed. I have a grievance always with “it” for making it so hard for the most of us to access. But i practice. I…

> i see how all prophets are indeed one, and how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer finally takes away our anger and hurt to open that door which cannot be closed.

There certainly are teachings that one might find in different religions, but to say that "all prophets are indeed one" and "how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer . . . .", does not match up with what is taught in buddhism, christianity and islam.

In buddhism the goal is Nirvana, which is reached after extinction of greed, aversion and ignorance, leading to release from the cycle of rebirth.[1]

In christianity, the saviour is Jesus: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", [John 14:6], and "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin". [1 John 1:7]

And the result of faith in Jesus is heaven, which is described in this way (a couple of glimpses): "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. [Revelation 21:1-2] "They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever."[Revelation 22:5]

In islam, one of the five pilars is: "I bear witness that there is no deity but God, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God."[2]

Salvation in the afterlife: "According to the Quran, the basic criterion for salvation in the afterlife is the belief in the oneness of God (tawḥīd), angels of God, revealed books of God, all messengers of God, as well as repentance to God, and doing good deeds. Though one must do good deeds and believe in God, salvation can only be attained through God's judgment.[3] "Jannah is described as an eternal dwelling (Q3:136), with its supreme felicity and greatest bliss being God's good pleasure (Q9:72)".[4]

The teachings in buddhism, christianity and islam are therefore very different, and points to completely different ways of salvation and afterlife. They all can't be true at the same time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahada

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jannah#Muslims

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jannah#Quran

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#113

Post by Ichthypresbyter »

jkingsbery wrote: post #73
pge wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember correctly, the ban against marriage came after the monasteries were well established. The monasteries were some of the largest estates in medieval Europe, and there was a fear that they would become dynasties that challenged the lords (or became poweful in their own right which could challenge the church hierarchy). The marriage prohibition kept the church in control of the monasteries and kept the rela…

I think you are mistaken in some details. Monasteries from pretty early on required celibacy. According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy_in_the_Cat... , priests did get married until the 12th century (even then, some say there was an unenforced law rule on the books saying that wasn't supposed to happen) . While there were some theological and worldly reasons for the change, competition with lords…

In the Orthodox Church, priests are allowed (and in fact encouraged) to be married, but cannot marry after they are ordained.

On the other hand, bishops must be monks as well as priests, and therefore cannot be married.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#114

Post by dmurray »

Thorentis wrote: post #76
galaxyLogic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trappists make great beer right? It is strong beer and gets your head messed up. I've often wondered how such good religious folks would become producers of alcoholic drinks. I assume they didn't drink themselves, doesn't go well with meditation I assume. So are they more like thinking "Let the sinners drink this since they want, and it will pay for the rent of our meditation chambers?"

There is no issue with alcohol in Catholicism. Indeed, some during the middle ages would live off beer alone during Lent, when they would abstain from food entirely. It is simply a question of moderation. There are many medevial images of monks drinking. "In Catholicsm, the Pint, the Pipe, and the Cross can all fit together." ~ GK Chesterton.

"There's no issue with alcohol" is the wrong way to put it.

Consumption of alcohol is mandatory at certain times (as part of Mass) and forbidden at other times (Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, but traditionally every Friday and all of Lent).

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#115

Post by notagoodidea »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #49
christophilus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent some time discerning as a Trappist, and now have a family. I’ve found the lack of silence to be the biggest challenge. How is your prayer life as a parent?

Trappists make great beer right? It is strong beer and gets your head messed up. I've often wondered how such good religious folks would become producers of alcoholic drinks. I assume they didn't drink themselves, doesn't go well with meditation I assume. So are they more like thinking "Let the sinners drink this since they want, and it will pay for the rent of our meditation chambers?"

Let's make things straight :) "Trappist" is a appellation for beers made by Trappist monasteries in Belgium, Netherlands and a few around the world. They are not specially strong and they may be consumed by the monks. In fact, like for the wine where a lot of monastery produced and developed the basis for modern wine production, it as a bit similar in Belgium for the beers. Take Orval for example, one of the most famous and it have 6.2% alcohol level. A draft pils beer in Belgium is expected to be around 5%-5.5%. And a few monasteries produced and keep producing beers in Belgium without being Trappist labeled like the Dominicans in Liege with their Sanctus Dominicus.

Besides the rules to give the Trappist label were :

* The beer must be brewed within the walls of a Trappist monastery, either by the monks themselves or under their supervision.

* The brewery must be of secondary importance within the monastery and it should witness to the business practices proper to a monastic way of life.

* The brewery is not intended to be a profit-making venture. The income covers the living expenses of the monks and the maintenance of the buildings and grounds. Whatever remains is donated to charity for social work and to help persons in need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trappist_beer

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#116

Post by Thorentis »

dmurray wrote: post #114
Thorentis wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no issue with alcohol in Catholicism. Indeed, some during the middle ages would live off beer alone during Lent, when they would abstain from food entirely. It is simply a question of moderation. There are many medevial images of monks drinking. "In Catholicsm, the Pint, the Pipe, and the Cross can all fit together." ~ GK Chesterton.

"There's no issue with alcohol" is the wrong way to put it. Consumption of alcohol is mandatory at certain times (as part of Mass) and forbidden at other times (Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, but traditionally every Friday and all of Lent).

The Catholic Church actually teaches that Jesus is present in both the wine and bread, so only one must be consumed. At least in the Roman Rite it is never compulsory to receive the wine, and prior to the 1960s only the priest would receive the wine while the lay people would receive bread only.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#117

Post by dmurray »

Thorentis wrote: post #116
dmurray wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's no issue with alcohol" is the wrong way to put it. Consumption of alcohol is mandatory at certain times (as part of Mass) and forbidden at other times (Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, but traditionally every Friday and all of Lent).

The Catholic Church actually teaches that Jesus is present in both the wine and bread, so only one must be consumed. At least in the Roman Rite it is never compulsory to receive the wine, and prior to the 1960s only the priest would receive the wine while the lay people would receive bread only.

Yes I just meant that some consumption of alcohol (by the priest) is a compulsory part of the rite. At least here, the wine isn't generally offered to the laity, though you can get it if you ask nicely.

Also I thought I was going to be corrected on the other part of my claim. Apparently abstaining from alcohol on fast days isn't centralized Catholic doctrine and bishops/archbishops have some discretion on what they tell their congregations to abstain from.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#118

Post by vmilner »

notagoodidea wrote: post #115
galaxyLogic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trappists make great beer right? It is strong beer and gets your head messed up. I've often wondered how such good religious folks would become producers of alcoholic drinks. I assume they didn't drink themselves, doesn't go well with meditation I assume. So are they more like thinking "Let the sinners drink this since they want, and it will pay for the rent of our meditation chambers?"

Let's make things straight :) "Trappist" is a appellation for beers made by Trappist monasteries in Belgium, Netherlands and a few around the world. They are not specially strong and they may be consumed by the monks. In fact, like for the wine where a lot of monastery produced and developed the basis for modern wine production, it as a bit similar in Belgium for the beers. Take Orval for example, one of the most fam…

This UK one is excellent:

http://www.mountsaintbernard.org/tynt-meadow-ale

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#119

Post by keiferski »

wolfhumble wrote: post #112
idclip wrote: post #100

Strong dhamma - thank you. I frequent budhist monasteries myself - i see how all prophets are indeed one, and how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer finally takes away our anger and hurt to open that door which cannot be closed. I have a grievance always with “it” for making it so hard for the most of us to access. But i practice. I…

> i see how all prophets are indeed one, and how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer finally takes away our anger and hurt to open that door which cannot be closed. There certainly are teachings that one might find in different religions, but to say that "all prophets are indeed one" and "how budha, christ and allah and all other god…

> They all can't be true at the same time.

You may be interested in Process Theology, which essentially argues for this exact thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k-p863u5lQ

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#120

Post by KineticLensman »

Thorentis wrote: post #76
galaxyLogic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trappists make great beer right? It is strong beer and gets your head messed up. I've often wondered how such good religious folks would become producers of alcoholic drinks. I assume they didn't drink themselves, doesn't go well with meditation I assume. So are they more like thinking "Let the sinners drink this since they want, and it will pay for the rent of our meditation chambers?"

There is no issue with alcohol in Catholicism. Indeed, some during the middle ages would live off beer alone during Lent, when they would abstain from food entirely. It is simply a question of moderation. There are many medevial images of monks drinking. "In Catholicsm, the Pint, the Pipe, and the Cross can all fit together." ~ GK Chesterton.

> Indeed, some during the middle ages would live off beer alone during Lent

In the middle ages, 'small beer' [0] was a low-alcohol drink which because of the brewing process was often safer than bacteria-contaminated water from some natural sources such as wells and streams

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_beer

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