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FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

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Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#31

I love the emphasis on breaking out all of the GPIO pins, it is incredible today how many dev boards either leave pins as not connected or hard wire them (no jumper to disable) to some onboad peripheral. Looking at you stm32 discovery boards...

The Discovery boards are a bit of a minefield over which pins you're allowed to use. It can cause surprising problems if you don't check the dev board manual's pin table, or don't know how to interpret it. Additionally, you need to plug the jumpers into the bottom of the board; it looks like you can use the top, but the jumpers tend to fall out! The nucelo ones are even weirder. The pins aren't labeled on the board,…

> It can cause surprising problems if you don't check the dev board manual's pin table

Nah, you got it all wrong. You need to pull up the devboard's Pinout, User Guide, and Overview documents. Sometimes cross reference those to the devboard's schematic for the trickier pins. Alongside the specific User Guide and Programming manuals for the MCU on the board. Plus the MCU's guides don't typically cover stuff that's common to all MCUs in a particular Cortex family, so you need to pull up the Cortex documentation. And then, finally, the errata documents.

Typically speaking you'll need to cross reference across all of those documents, all at once, and several places _within_ each document ... all at once.

That's assuming you're using one of the more common pins. If you've decided to dabble with any of the more exotic functionalities you'll want to pull up one or several Application documents, as the former pile of documentation is unlikely to accurately describe the necessary "voodoo" to get things working.

(I kinda wish this comment was a joke ... but it's not. The STM line of chips are truly wonderful machines but ... golly are they a pain to develop on. There's a reason most people just use Arduino to plaster over this stuff.)

EDIT: Oh and make sure you don't confuse the labeling of the pins on the board, with the label of the pins on the pinout, with the label of the pins on the schematic, with the label of the pins in the registers, with the label of the pins in the various HAL libraries...

EDIT2: Geez, how could I forgot the most crucial thing: you of course have to modulate all of these by which specific package of the chip you're actually working with. No sense spending half an hour of your life wadding through all of this documentation only to get to the dev board pinout to find that pin is only available on the largest package and the dev board only came with the 2nd to largest package... (and also doesn't include that one peripheral you were planning to use because ... reasons).

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#32
post #19

I'm the author of the blog . Not trying to promote myself but since you posted, the v3 of the board is available on the tinyvision.ai and tindie stores. I discontinued v2 as it was a terrible design that I couldn't stand behind. There are many reasons to learn about fpga's. Yes micros have their place as well and are very capable and cheap like the Nxp RT series.

What's the best place to start learning about FPGAs? I've been wanting to dip my toes in, but not sure where to begin.

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#33
post #19

I'm the author of the blog . Not trying to promote myself but since you posted, the v3 of the board is available on the tinyvision.ai and tindie stores. I discontinued v2 as it was a terrible design that I couldn't stand behind. There are many reasons to learn about fpga's. Yes micros have their place as well and are very capable and cheap like the Nxp RT series.

What's the best place to start learning about FPGAs? I've been wanting to dip my toes in, but not sure where to begin.

If you are already familiar with Python I could recommend start with this tutorial: https://github.com/RobertBaruch/nmigen-tutorial

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#34

How about an FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple (or not really), supported by OSS toolchain and can emulate a RISC-V SoC with performance sufficient to run a fully-functional Linux desktop? I once stumbled upon an article where somebody FPGA-ed (with a much bigger board, I don't insist it has to be this small and simple) a RISC-V system to make a "RISC-V PC" and I'm thinking about getting an FPGA to explore that sin…

Not extremely cheap, but the ULX3S fits the bill. It's got the inputs and outputs and all.

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, but please don't downvote stuff like this-- respond with a thought out comment, thanks. I upvoted you. Perhaps Xilinx-land is different, but I have seen an intern go from blank Windows machine to "blink an LED" on an Altera board in about an hour or so with no Verlog/VHDL. I have never seen this with the open-source toolchains. Your experience differs. YMMV. Disclaimers. etc.

I mean. The time for an intern to go from nothing to a blinking LED is not an interesting metric at all for a professional tool.

Professional tools are judged by such metrics. Manufacturers put tremendous effort into onboarding neophytes because they know whichever stack of tools get the job done with the lowest cost labor will grab a lot of market. The old heads that can write Verilog from memory are trapped in zoom meetings dealing with 'managers.'

Sadly this frequently manifests as huge, Eclipse based bloatware with byzantine installation processes and comical fragility. Precious few understand the value of lightweight, robust tools and confuse elaborate graphical wizards and code generators with quality.

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#36
post #34

How about an FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple (or not really), supported by OSS toolchain and can emulate a RISC-V SoC with performance sufficient to run a fully-functional Linux desktop? I once stumbled upon an article where somebody FPGA-ed (with a much bigger board, I don't insist it has to be this small and simple) a RISC-V system to make a "RISC-V PC" and I'm thinking about getting an FPGA to explore that sin…

Not extremely cheap, but the ULX3S fits the bill. It's got the inputs and outputs and all.

Thanks!

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#37
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Use the manufacturer tools (which, in this instance, are free) as using an "open-source toolchain" is NOT for beginners. As someone who learned the ropes with the open toolchain, I have to strongly disagree. It's perfectly feasible, and from what I've seen (videos and such), the closed toolchains are way messier and do not provide much in terms of tools unless you pay for time-limited licenses. No thanks.

I disagree, but please don't downvote stuff like this-- respond with a thought out comment, thanks. I upvoted you. Perhaps Xilinx-land is different, but I have seen an intern go from blank Windows machine to "blink an LED" on an Altera board in about an hour or so with no Verlog/VHDL. I have never seen this with the open-source toolchains. Your experience differs. YMMV. Disclaimers. etc.

I'm just going to chime in as well. OSS tools were a breeze to set up. And the compile loop is so very quick comparatively.

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Discovery boards are a bit of a minefield over which pins you're allowed to use. It can cause surprising problems if you don't check the dev board manual's pin table, or don't know how to interpret it. Additionally, you need to plug the jumpers into the bottom of the board; it looks like you can use the top, but the jumpers tend to fall out! The nucelo ones are even weirder. The pins aren't labeled on the board,…

> It can cause surprising problems if you don't check the dev board manual's pin table Nah, you got it all wrong. You need to pull up the devboard's Pinout, User Guide, and Overview documents. Sometimes cross reference those to the devboard's schematic for the trickier pins. Alongside the specific User Guide and Programming manuals for the MCU on the board. Plus the MCU's guides don't typically cover stuff that's com…

Those issues transcend the discovery board. It's frustrating how much the Reference Manuals leave to the imagination. A lot of the peripherals are similar or identical across families. Some have subtle differences, and some have large ones. I haven't found a shortcut - seems you really need to bring up parallel reference manuals.

For example, the RTC periph is the same on most STM32 devices. Clocks vary significantly between families, as expected, but at their core, are just different combos of multipliers and internal oscillators, which you can break out by comparing clock trees. Things like I2C vary wildly between families, and sometimes within families.

Re: FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple and supported by OSS toolchain

#40

How about an FPGA dev board that's cheap, simple (or not really), supported by OSS toolchain and can emulate a RISC-V SoC with performance sufficient to run a fully-functional Linux desktop? I once stumbled upon an article where somebody FPGA-ed (with a much bigger board, I don't insist it has to be this small and simple) a RISC-V system to make a "RISC-V PC" and I'm thinking about getting an FPGA to explore that sin…

Crowd Supply has quite a selection of often astonishingly cheap FPGA prototype boards supported by all Free toolchains.

The mother lode of cheap, capable FPGAs seems to be supply chains for makers of TVs.

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