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St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

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Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#61
post #50

The whole "unquestioning obedience" thing is what freaks me out the most. Truly people are right when they say that religion is fundamentally about control.

I can totally understand that sentiment.

I don't know about you, but for me the obvious way in which politicians and other powerful sorts have abused and perverted religious devices (and systems of control) to achieve their own ends has left a really bad taste in my mouth generally w.r.t anything "control-y' about religion.

The religious motivation behind control in monasteries is something different, though (at least when uncorrupted by politics and power).

Monasteries are, by design, very controlled environments. That's _exactly_ what they are supposed to be.

A place where you can safely get lost in ecstatic bliss, altered states of consciousness and the sometimes-difficult psychological territory of self discovery that typically follows these experiences.

The guard rails are put there by people who have travelled the road before and know what the pitfalls are.

For anyone curious about that (from a Christian monastery context):

* Cloud of Unknowing (Anonymous)

* The Dark Night of the Soul (St. John of the Cross)

* The Interior Castle (Teresa of Ávila)

Similar material exists for guiding e.g. Buddhist monks through the sort of territory that comes up when people spend a lot of time alone in contemplation (The Visuddhimagga, The Vimuttimagga in the Theravada tradition, The Tibetan Book of the Dead in the Vajrayana tradition).

Shamanic traditions likewise have very strict schedules of diet and spiritual preparation before aspirants can consume psychedelics - and ceremonies are (traditionally) performed under exquisitely controlled conditions.

Incidentally - westerners who play with meditative technologies or "psychedelic" therapies absent a regular, working relationship with a guide who know the territory do so at their own peril, IMO.

Thousands of years of contemplative and meditative practice have yielded independently arising systems in many different cultures which call for a controlled environment where a practitioner is surrounded by peers who know what to do, and more importantly what _not_ to do when things get a bit weird.

That's JUST for the individual practitioner.

Now add another layer for "things that can go wrong when trying to manage / lead a large community of people doing these things together".

Many mystical traditions (particularly eastern ones) solve this problem by having rules about how long monks and abbots can stay in one place.

Here, we see some western solutions to the common problems of community governance (at least: the sorts of problems one was likely to encounter at the time).

I've meandered really widely around the point! :)

Really I just wanted to call out that there is a valid (within the context of the goals of spiritual practice) use for a very controlled environment that should be considered separately from the common understanding of "religious control" (i.e. the powerful and political abusing religious devices to exert control over the masses).

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#62
post #19
post #6

"We read, it is true, that wine is by no means a drink for monks; but since the monks of our day cannot be persuaded of this, let us at least agree to drink sparingly and not to satiety, because 'wine makes even the wise fall away.'" I'm a Catholic, and this is the rule that amuses me the most. The monks were willing to give up most material possessions and submit to a life of poverty, obedience, and sexual abstinenc…

I've always liked Catholic writer G.K. Chesterton's take: “Drink because you are happy, but never because you are miserable. Never drink when you are wretched without it, or you will be like the grey-faced gin-drinker in the slum; but drink when you would be happy without it, and you will be like the laughing peasant of Italy. Never drink because you need it, for this is rational drinking, and the way to death and he…

Nice. It's like the phrase "Drink to remember, not to forget".

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#63
post #56

Those rules help the Church preserve the ancient knowledge until Gutenberg. As a Catholic, I'm devout of St. Benedict because the creation of monasteries have a huge impact of the human knowledge.

This is a widely known but misleading "fact". The truth is much more complicated. For one, an almost universally overlooked bit of history is how absolutely crucial muslim scholars were in preserving classical texts, in keeping an unbroken chain from the Classical Age until the Renaissance. Places like Al-Andalus -- muslim Iberia that is -- or Bagdhad, were the centres of knowledge in the world in their time, and als…

True, but note also the influence of the (eastern) Roman Empire we now call the Byzantines, on the Renaissance, when Constantinople fell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissa...

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#64

I can't see anything about celibacy

If I remember correctly, the ban against marriage came after the monasteries were well established. The monasteries were some of the largest estates in medieval Europe, and there was a fear that they would become dynasties that challenged the lords (or became poweful in their own right which could challenge the church hierarchy). The marriage prohibition kept the church in control of the monasteries and kept the relationship between the church and the lords happy.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#65
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically I missed the structure that came from the vow of obedience that felt at times like I gave up all my individual freedom. I learned this gave me focus on the thing at hand, whether it was praying, meditating, cooking or cleaning. I still miss the sheer simplicity of that life.

Amazing how form and freedom aren't antithetical, but are actually part and parcel of true liberty.

It's a strange paradox, but one that I've found time and again; 'liberty' to do anything anytime can be much more restrictive than 'freedom' to choose one thing and then move on.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#66
Does anyone know if there's something on par with Standard Ebooks quality and "remastering scrutiny" with a focus for old religious books like the above?

> Major religious texts from modern world religions, like the Bible or the Koran, will not be accepted. Texts about religion will usually be accepted. Texts from historical religious movements that were culturally influential but are now defunct, or are otherwise not significant in modern times, might be accepted; ask first. https://standardebooks.org/contribute/accepted-ebooks

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#67
post #25
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always considered it more of a reflection on practicality. There is going to be wine around the monastery, if only because it is necessary for Mass. Therefore, you cannot really ban wine, so are you really going to dedicate a group of monks to the sole task of cellar guard duty?

I don't know if this is off-topic, but in some religions, including Judaism and some denominations of Christianity, drinking is a religious necessity. In Judaism: Every Sabbath, you bless and drink wine. Every Passover, you drink four cups of wine. Every Purim, you are commanded to drink to your happiness. In some denominations of Christianity: You drink wine as part of the Eucharist. On the other hand, I think in Is…

DT Suzuki has a funny quip in some book where he knocks Christianity for drinking intoxicating wine, whereas Zen drinks tea. I laughed but actually wine rules.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#68

> Your IP Address in Germany is Blocked from www.gutenberg.org Of course, copyright trolls :) Workaround: https://web.archive.org/web/20180911045657/https://www.guten... (Welcome to 2021, the year Silicon Valley went Catholic...)

Info for those outside of Germany: https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html

I had long assumed that Project Gutenberg was based in Germany; probably due to its namesake.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#69
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a widely known but misleading "fact". The truth is much more complicated. For one, an almost universally overlooked bit of history is how absolutely crucial muslim scholars were in preserving classical texts, in keeping an unbroken chain from the Classical Age until the Renaissance. Places like Al-Andalus -- muslim Iberia that is -- or Bagdhad, were the centres of knowledge in the world in their time, and als…

True, but note also the influence of the (eastern) Roman Empire we now call the Byzantines, on the Renaissance, when Constantinople fell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissa...

Well one, no Ottomans, no fall of Byzantium, no Renaissance. :-) But more seriously, the Eastern Empire was in communication with their Muslim neighbors. For example, the iconoclastic controversy and the final resolution in favor of icons only makes sense in a context where your neighbors are much harder core than you are about idolatry and it’s embarrassing to the intelligentsia.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#70
post #56

Those rules help the Church preserve the ancient knowledge until Gutenberg. As a Catholic, I'm devout of St. Benedict because the creation of monasteries have a huge impact of the human knowledge.

This is a widely known but misleading "fact". The truth is much more complicated. For one, an almost universally overlooked bit of history is how absolutely crucial muslim scholars were in preserving classical texts, in keeping an unbroken chain from the Classical Age until the Renaissance. Places like Al-Andalus -- muslim Iberia that is -- or Bagdhad, were the centres of knowledge in the world in their time, and als…

I think it's always important, when talking about Al-Alndalus - that even in works like The ornament, there is the temptation to selectively play up cooperative elements of the society and turning a blind eye to the fact that the general circumstances of the society are not one in which we as moderns would see as particularly 'multicultural' or 'tolerant' ; Scholars are good at holding these things in separation lay people generally muddle the two. Holding other religions as subservient classes is not in line with our ideals of modern religious tolerance.

I think its somewhat inevitable that pagan works would be lost over the centuries, and less surprising that they would survive in dryer climates. Ultimately, I think to make the christians look particularly oppresive and destructive one has to overlook a lot of pagan violence. In the case of the islamic world, we can say for sure that there was a general destruction of churches, existing infrastructure and a general looting of most of the areas that came under islamic domination. And this is the pattern for the exchange of cultures nothing unusual. Taking the Dome of the Rock for an illustrative example - the Mosque at the dome of the rock began as a looted Marian shrine, built over the ancient roman temple which the romans themselves built over Herod's second temple.

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