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Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

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Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#191

Post by kodah »

johngalt wrote: post #187
kodah wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conversely right leaning occupations such as veterans, oil rig workers and farmers always have their head in the clouds with high minded idealistic notions that don't work in the real world. Is this a joke?

> Is this a joke? Yes. The person I was replying to seemed to assume that college was where people are disabused of idealism. My response was satirical.

I am not going to lie, I was really worried for a bit.

I don't know if I'm delusional at this point for mistaking sarcasm for mainstream political culture opinion, if it's scary that belief is even possibly real, or somewhere in between.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#192

Post by afuchs »

undoware wrote: post #142
rblatz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainstream media talking points vary from Trump and his family are breaking norms and traditions in a very dangerous way to our country, all the way to the Biden crime family is going to ruin this country. With major undertones of a lot of hurt, anger, and feeling like there is no hope among minorities or rural whites depending on which sources you choose to consume. Both are true, both need addressed. And it’s likel…

I get routinely modded down on this site for pointing out issues that are ostensibly too political, like workplace discrimination. But on this same site, somoene can literally carry on a discussion echoing the (proven false) propaganda points ("biden crime family"? dear lord) and it stays up without downvote for (checks watch) an hour and counting. Everything this past week has been a chest x-ray of our collective sp…

This is a bit of a meta discussion, but there does seem to be a marked difference between what the moderators do (most recently, pruning entire threads) and what users using the "flag" button and down voting does.

The last couple of days have been particularly hellish, with many threads that descended into flame wars which drifted far away from whatever the original post was about.

I agree that there have been many threads that were far from being good faith discussions and turned into shouting matches with too many posts made in bad faith (such as citing bad sources that did not contain anything directly relevant to the point being argued, or links to sources that just repeated the original unsubstantiated allegation without presenting any evidence). Actions taken by users in these threads seemed to reflect preexisting biases rather than anything resembling a good faith debate.

With that I want to express my appreciation for the moderators who's job I do not envy but who are very necessary to keeping this site functioning in any way.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#193

Post by eloff »

j0ba wrote: post #188
inglor_cz wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good education system does not neatly translate to, say, economic success. Italy has top-class university system, much older than Columbus, and yet the country seems to be stuck in stagnation for last 20 years and the talented fresh graduates of those top schools move abroad.

> Good education system does not neatly translate to, say, economic success. If you think anyone said that, you should probably talk less and read more. Because it doesn't appear you're competent in either. Education is necessary but not sufficient.

That's a bit harsh. The OP has a good point, and he's not mischaracterizing anyone's argument. Please re-read the HN guidelines about being civil.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#194

Post by ipython »

DaniloDias wrote: post #151
mrfusion wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most educated people I know seem the most partisan right now and most likely to parrot main stream media talking points. It’s making me question my assumptions about education. On the other hand Im just one data point.

The behavior that helped the most educated succeed was being informed. It’s not surprising that they maintain that pattern and in so doing, parrot mainstream media. Most people have limited experience in managing information that they consider authoritative which turns out to be wrong. I think the best example of authoritative misinformation for 2020 is Anthony Fauci’s guidance that masks don’t help until they do. I’…

So I suppose in your eyes science can never correct itself? I find the constant example of fauci’s “about face” on masks as an example of why not to listen to experts to be very concerning, especially by people who profess to believe in science. There is a wide gulf between deliberate misinformation and the scientific method refining the best advice known at the time for a novel virus. It’s disingenuous to equate the two.

In the beginning there was a real question of how this virus transmitted as well as acute supply shortages of n95 masks for first responders.

If you expect scientists to be correct the first time, every time, I guess you’ll set yourself up for disappointment. I suppose when you sit down to code, especially using a new language or framework, you get it right the first time with no bugs? If so, congratulations and let us know how you did it.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#195

Post by WatchDog »

onethought wrote: post #111
WatchDog wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an umbrellas make it rain reverse causation. I don't see how. > If you look outside the US the education level does correlate with the political spectrum. I didn't mention anything about the US, it's a global phenomenon. Personality is a largely biological construct, and it's also highly correlated with political leaning. Looking at the big 5 model, left leaning people tend to be high in neuroticism(emotion…

I’m saying even the right shifts left. It’s not about “left leaning people” it’s the entire spectrum moves. There are still of course right and left leaning people on that spectrum

What I'm saying is that the teachers are left leaning, and it influences their students.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#196

Post by a1369209993 »

root_axis wrote: post #119
tathougies wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are increasingly beyond the reach of normal citizens. If your views do not align 100% with either party, you are increasingly marginalized. See the treatment of Donald Trump (a republican outsider, and not a traditional conservative by any means, but not a democrat in principle either) by the Republican party. For the past four years, republicans have refused to pass bills due to not matching ideological purity…

> Honestly, after seeing both how the GOP and Democrats treated Trump, Sanders, and Gabbard, I find myself supportive of all three of them despite them having a very different views. I simply like that they're not either party. This seems absurd. If your political reasoning puts you in a situation where Trump and Sanders are both options for you then your system is broken - they are antithetical to each other in styl…

> Based on your logic, if both parties rejected Stalin then you'd be in favor of him.

If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -- Winston Churchill

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#197

Post by DaniloDias »

ipython wrote: post #194
DaniloDias wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The behavior that helped the most educated succeed was being informed. It’s not surprising that they maintain that pattern and in so doing, parrot mainstream media. Most people have limited experience in managing information that they consider authoritative which turns out to be wrong. I think the best example of authoritative misinformation for 2020 is Anthony Fauci’s guidance that masks don’t help until they do. I’…

So I suppose in your eyes science can never correct itself? I find the constant example of fauci’s “about face” on masks as an example of why not to listen to experts to be very concerning, especially by people who profess to believe in science. There is a wide gulf between deliberate misinformation and the scientific method refining the best advice known at the time for a novel virus. It’s disingenuous to equate the…

Why slap a narrative on me? I said nothing you’ve talked about and don’t believe what you ascribe you me. Why waste the time of both of us?

“As Fauci told the Washington Post here , at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fauci-outdated-...

The man was in a no-win situation, and he had to make a shitty call, but integrity doesn’t mean occasional honesty. He and many others walked through a one-way door and the best move for him is to resign so we can have someone with a clean ethical slate.

Let’s make this simpler. How do you feel about General Alexander’s testimony to Congress about surveillance of the American people?

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#198

Post by DaniloDias »

fgonzag wrote: post #181
mrfusion wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise a great point. Trust in authorities is a very powerful mental shortcut. You don’t have to research anything. Go with the mainstream and you’ll always be right. Until that shortcut goes horribly wrong.

It's not a shortcut. It's the only way to form opinions outside of your expertise fields, because you simply don't have the time to personally research everything. That's why it's very important to have a healthy dose of skepticism when receiving info from people who we trust, because we chose the gatekeepers based on our opinions which implicitly selects for our own biases. For example I don't actually know that the…

If you are an expert in a topic that is covered by the media, I cannot understand how you would have faith in the media’s coverage of topics you don’t understand.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#199

Post by bfrog »

anewaccount2021 wrote: post #66
74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) 50 years is enough for "institutional memory" to go out of the window. This may change with longevity breakthroughs, but 50 years is currently enough for a complete generation exchange, so the new leaders have no memory of the previous upheaval and will make the same mistakes again. Or at least the same kind of mistakes, details are always different. That's why education is the most important pillar of democracy…

This is what I would expect a technocratic forum like HN to suggest. America's most poverty stricken regions have had public education for nearly a century with almost no meaningful improvement in prospects. Tell me how rural poverty in West Viriginia is reduced by giving people humanities degrees. Better educated voters? Who cares, the poor have no representation of merit anyway; their choices are to vote for one pa…

When the teachers in certain areas are on welfare programs because the wages are below poverty levels, what sort of education do you expect people to receive? Who do you expect teaches? Education here is a glorified daycare, not an attempt to instill critical thought on how we might attempt to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. Like voting for politicians who implemented policies to send our jobs and basic goods factories over seas.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#200

Post by testrun »

root_axis wrote: post #139
alisonatwork wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is too difficult to understand. It's anti-establishment versus establishment, populist versus elite, that sort of axis.

I still don't get it. It just seems silly to favor a candidate based on who rejects them. If policies on opposite sides of the political spectrum are interchangeable then why care at all who gets elected? At least voting for a 3rd party one can be said to be contributing to a cause closest to one's ideal, but being favorable to anyone who the mainstream doesn't approve of just seems like flawed logic.

This is not about the person. It is about alternative voices to be heard in policy making and policy execution.
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