Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England • Hacker News Board

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#121

Post by beerandt » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 9:38 AM UTC

reportingsjr wrote: post #49

vcdimension wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honey bee's are not native to Britain, and are not in any danger of disappearing because, like chickens, sheep, cows, and other livestock, we control their population; when demand or price of honey bee's is high beekeepers produce more, when it is low they produce less: https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/04/17/bee-apocalypse-was-neve...

Not sure how you came to that conclusion after reading that article. It states that honeybees (Apis mellifera) possibly originated in Asia and spread to Africa and Europe about 300,000 years ago. Additionally, it is likely that honeybees are native to Britain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250278609_Are_honey... The greater issue here though is that if honeybees are affected, there are likely many other be…

>likely many other bee species

I don't know specifically about Britain, but most bee species are solitary, and without a hive, they're not as vulnerable to disease, or poison transferred back to their home. Other types of bees accidentally exposed would likely only die themselves, not quickly spread it to and kill other populations.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#122

Post by amanaplanacanal » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

simon1ltd wrote: post #120

saghm wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The PhD speaker, who’s worked in pesticide research his entire career, explained that around here American Foul Brood wiped out > 95% of hives in many areas over the span of a decade (70s or 80s?) — and he said there’s no reason to believe that the “wild” bees fared any differently. In fact, he believes we still have wild bees because of natural swarming behavior — meaning our wild bees are heavily linked with the…

There are multiple species of bees. I’m specifically referring to honey bees. I’ve not studied the other varieties. I’m not aware of any studies, and most would have taken place well before the internet and electronic records were a thing. I can state that my hives have swarmed several times, so those bees were “out there” — and the genetics I see in 2nd and 3rd generation brood show there’s quite a few different bre…

Ah! Normally when I read about wild bees in the US I assume they are talking about native species, not honeybees. This makes more sense now.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#123

Post by ShaVerZ » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

Emergency use, I assume is acceptable but we all know that this is just the start and that emergency window will get larger and larger and we will see no end unfortunately.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#124

Post by Technically » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:49 AM UTC

liaukovv wrote: post #83

Technically wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you comparing us to? We don't have a control group for intelligent species.

Why do you consider intelligence somehow special over big teeth or ability to change color at will?

It's not clear why you'd consider our species particularly interesting for a reason other than intelligence. According to much of human history and culture this is what differentiates us from other animals.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#125

Post by 40four » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #98

GordonS wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're from, but for our US readers it might be worth pointing out that large farms in the UK are nowhere near the size of "large" farms in the US. I've also never heard of "bees as a service" here, though I know it exists in the US. For reference, I'm not a farmer, but live in the British countryside.

Agree, never heard of bees as a service - also live in a farming community. We farm different crops here.

From the 'National Honey Board' website (USA) https://honey.com/newsroom/presskit/honey-industry-facts

Many commercial beekeepers migrate their colonies during the year to provide pollination services to farmers and to reach the most abundant sources of nectar.

Millions of acres of U.S. fruit, vegetable, oilseed and legume seed crops depend on insect pollination, including honey bees.

The USDA has estimated that 80 percent of insect crop pollination is accomplished by honey bees. Approximately one-third of the total human diet is derived directly or indirectly from insect-pollinated plants (fruits, legumes and vegetables).

Crop Dependence

The almond crop is entirely dependent on honey bee pollination. Without honey bees, there would be no almonds. More than 80 percent of the world's almonds are produced in California.3 To pollinate California's approximately 790,000 bearing acres of almonds4 requires more than a million colonies of honey bees.

Numerous other crops are 90 percent dependent on honey bee pollination. Some of those crops include apples, avocados, blueberries, cherries, cranberries and sunflowers. Other crops such as cucumbers, kiwi fruit, melons and vegetables are also pollinated by honey bees.*

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#126

Post by 40four » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #59

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I don't know where you're from, but for our US readers it might be worth pointing out that large farms in the UK are nowhere near the size of "large" farms in the US. I've also never heard of "bees as a service" here, though I know it exists in the US. For reference, I'm not a farmer, but live in the British countryside.

Despite having smaller farms, I would be very surprised if farmers in the UK were not working with local beekeepers. Anytime you see a those hive boxes sitting randomly in a field somewhere, this is what you are seeing.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#127

Post by 40four » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

stinos wrote: post #68

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

You make a very good point, but your post reads a bit too much like 'wild bees are fine'. I think you know what follows, but just for completeness and for other readers: they aren't, at all , just like insects in general (the numbers are so unbelievably insane I'm nog even going to look up the latest one but just say '70% decrease in the last couple of decades' and it will be ballpark correct, unfortunately). And unl…

This is fair. I did not mean to suggest there are no issues with wild bee populations declining. There certainly are.

Also it's important to note that anything we call a 'wild' honey bee now is just a descendant of a once 'domesticated' variety, originally brought over by European settlers. So if you trace it back far enough, protecting 'wild' bees is sort of funny since it is an 'artificial' element we introduced to our environment in the first place.

My gripe is these articles like to quote decrease in numbers observed by commercial bee keepers. They mislead people into thinking these are the same numbers scientists are observing in the overall wild bee population. Again, in America, something we introduced in the first place. They were not native.

I think it is important to understand that mono crop farms, with crops that depend on pollinators, work closely hand in hand with commercial bee keepers. I have never seen this explained to people by any of these articles, probably because it does not server their agenda.

Collateral damage from mono-crop farming practices (destruction of habitat, mass chemical application) is a big problem, but not being honest about the the history, and purposely hiding the large role commercial beekeepers play is not helpful.

https://honey.com/blog/honey-in-history-colonial-america

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#128

Post by 40four » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

kurthr wrote: post #48

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I see your position, and I agree that the problem is more complex than just pesticides are bad, but it's also more complex than saving sugar beets. If this were an invasive species (like murder hornets or malarial mosquitos) problem that could be stopped before it started or a temporary measure to prevent life and death (rather than wealth accumulation) for a significant number of people, I'd have more sympathy. Appl…

Fair point, they are calling it 'temporary' for now. But that's not going to make the diseases they are battling go away in a few years.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#129

Post by 40four » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

simon1ltd wrote: post #108

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I don’t think there’s a big difference between “wild” bees and the “domesticated” or farmed bees that you seem to believe exists. I’m in Ohio, and I’ve only been keeping bees for 3-4 years now, but I’ve attended lectures and talked to many longtime keepers in my area (Ohio). I specifically asked about wild bees, and the answer I got was unexpected, but made sense once it was explained to me. The PhD speaker, who’s wo…

Technically you are right, there isn't much difference between them because anything we call a 'wild' honey bee in America, was once a 'domesticated' honey bee brought over by European settlers.

Also, I did not mean to suggest wild bees are not in trouble too, my gripe is these articles, without mentioning, like to quote numbers commercial beekeepers have observed in their hives.

They never explain to folks how the commercial bee-keeping industry works. They just want you to think everything is 'natural', and all these giant farms are being pollinated by wild bees alone. They aren't.

You point isn't wrong, the wild and managed bees are essentially the same. The 'wild' honey bees are just domesticated ones that escaped, or didn't come back to the hive. The problem is commercial farming in America tends to be all 'mono-crop' and by it's nature has destroyed any biodiversity and any chance of wild bees thriving. So they depend on commercial beekeepers to come in and do the dirty work.

It goes both ways, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement becuase the beekeepers get access to high quality food for their bees, which will then in turn produce more honey. Unless 75% of the hive dies or fails to return, and the colonies collapse. Which is happening all too often now. It's a really big problem to be sure.

Sounds like you keep bees so you probably are more knowledgeable than me. Sorry, I just get mad because I can think of very few articles I seen on the topic that explain the topic in a reasonable way. It is clear they are trying to push their own agenda.

Good information I found on the National Honey Board website:

https://honey.com/newsroom/presskit/honey-industry-facts

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#130

Post by 40four » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

alsetmusic wrote: post #45

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I was with you for a lot of this post. However, I'm curious how one can say that "Beekeepers as a service" are harmed and not wild bees. How would wild bees be distinct from harm? It's not like a virus that harms humans distinguishes populations. How does this harm one group and not the other?

You're not wrong, but 'wild' honey bees in general aren't the ones being exposed to large commercial farms. Sure there is collateral damage, but that's not enough to endanger honey bees as a whole.

It's also important to note that 'wild' honey bees in America are not native. They were brought over by European settlers, and the ones who leave the hive or get left behind have formed the populations we now call 'wild'.

Maybe this article is doesn't apply since it pertains to the UK, and I'm not really familiar with the situation there. But my main point, is in regards to these articles you see all the time, that make it appear as if honey bees are on the verge of extinction.

In regards to the USA, if you write an article about honey been dying, and you purposefully don't mention the history of how they arrived here in the first place, and purposefully don't explain the massive role commercial beekeepers play, it is not very helpful. It is clear they are serving their own agenda.