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What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#71

Post by igeligel_dev »

mettamage wrote: post #52

What European companies are like this? I've been trying to apply for ages at US companies, for the reasons such as this. Reading HN for 6 years and being US-centered in general (thanks to tech) made me want to work like this. I've noticed that at European organizations people indeed try to pin me in a box, and then I can't thrive when I'm working there.

FAANG can be found in Europe. And I believe companies like Spotify, Klarna, Skyscanner, Uber (Amsterdam), takeaway.com are also working like this.

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#72

Post by lordnacho »

quicklime wrote: post #18

I've worked at both SV and traditional companies, and I feel like this very closely matches my experience. One of the things I worry about is that even at companies that are doing "Agile transformations" and adopting methodologies like Scrum, in practice have "Product Owners" who are there to give instructions via Jira tickets. Other roles like "Business Analysts" are there to ensure that lowly developers never have…

I think the key is whether you consider an engineer a business person. That is what links most of the things in the article: a business person needs to know certain business things to be effective, and so if you're considered a business person you get told things like what the competive landscape is, what the budget is, and so on.

For me, the engineer is actually the only person who can do those business functions properly, if the business is solving new problems (rather than a cash cow). I tolerate people who aren't engineers, because I often can't avoid them, but once you get more than a few of these people in your business, things get awkward for the actual engineers.

I also tend to think of engineering as more than just coding. An essential part of it is communicating. You can't do that without technical skills, there's just so much friction.

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#73

Post by jedberg »

PascLeRasc wrote: post #67
jedberg wrote: post #33

The best way to tell if a company values engineers is to ask which cost center they are in. Is it IT? Then they will treat you like a cog and consider you just a cost to the company. Is it Product? Then they will consider you valuable and critical to the company's success.

Has anyone made the switch between these two types of companies? I’m 2 years into my career but I’m one of those cog engineers working in IT and it’s really draining my soul. I don’t know how to talk about my job in interviews without giving off red flags.

I haven't done it myself, but I've hired people who were stuck in IT.

Just don't talk negatively about your old job. "I'm looking to move because I want to have more impact". "The work I'm doing now is not core to company's success and I want to have more impact". Etc.

I never looked down on someone who was doing boring work if that is what they were supposed to be doing. I'm looking for people who can communicate well and have strong core fundamentals. If you can demonstrate those things then you're doing well.

What kind of red flags are you worried about?

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#74

Post by bigiain »

quicklime wrote: post #18

I've worked at both SV and traditional companies, and I feel like this very closely matches my experience. One of the things I worry about is that even at companies that are doing "Agile transformations" and adopting methodologies like Scrum, in practice have "Product Owners" who are there to give instructions via Jira tickets. Other roles like "Business Analysts" are there to ensure that lowly developers never have…

> traditional companies that are doing Agile.

Aka "Wagile".

"We have a standup every morning, where you're required to report on how many of your assigned Jira tickets you completed yesterday and get berated for any incomplete ones no matter the cause! No excuses! We've committed to these deadlines and budgets, that you know nothing about having not been consulted on anything."

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#75

Post by kabes »

mettamage wrote: post #52

What European companies are like this? I've been trying to apply for ages at US companies, for the reasons such as this. Reading HN for 6 years and being US-centered in general (thanks to tech) made me want to work like this. I've noticed that at European organizations people indeed try to pin me in a box, and then I can't thrive when I'm working there.

For what it's worth. I worked at multiple European tech companies and moved to SF a couple of years back to work at a SV startup, and later a FAANG and this post heavily romanticizes silicon valley companies. Except for the bigger pay, I found them to be not that different. I'm now working back in europe and really don't miss SF/SV

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#76

Post by jedberg »

arexxbifs wrote: post #60
qppo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question I like for non-tech businesses is: "do you see this as a software business or transitioning to become one?" Because these days every business has to be investing into software products, and the ones that don't recognize that the software is key to all their products are the ones that are dead folks walking. They're also great targets for SaaS consultant vultures.

I dearly hope my cast iron skillet will never require a firmware upgrade.

A company that makes cast iron skillets can still have software as a core part of their business. Logistics, monitoring the manufacturing process, forecasting demand. All of these things can be software that is core to business. Or even more important, having a useful website for selling their products.

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#78

Post by lakala6790 »

courtf wrote: post #24
opportune wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! The proliferation and role of "business people" in traditional companies is IMO their defining characteristic. It shows how much or how little a business trusts engineers (and also engineer's "status" within the company, e.g. are they respected and valued or treated as a disposable resource) to run the business as general problem solvers. The ironic thing about Agile is that it has a cottage industry of "scrum c…

I've long imagined a position just above the scrum masters: the scrum lord. I see this position as a critical component of any agile strategy that seeks to maximize scrum master productivity, while still allowing scrum masters all the autonomy they need for their day-to-day duties.

What you are looking for is RTE; Release Train Engineer

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#79

Post by lxe »

Software engineers can't always be the best or effective at solving problems that require specialized non-software engineering knowledge.

In an SV-style company that develops a SaaS product, engineers can make all sorts of decisions, since they are solving a problem they are intimately familiar with.

What about other industries that require specialized knowledge or regulatory bureaucracy, like finances or healthcare?

Re: What Silicon Valley gets about engineers that traditional companies do not

#80

Post by 6510 »

Nice article, short and to the point. I hear a more general version a bit like it: There are 2 types of employees Saint Bernard's and Hyenas. The Saint Bernard needs to be told what to do all the time. Everything needs to be planned and organized for him. If he doesn't have a pen he cant write. If there is one pen in the building all the hyenas can write. If you chose the Saint Bernard's, as a manager your job is to make sure all the Saint Bernard's stay productive. If you chose the hyena your job is watching them like a hawk because they might run away and take your company (or chunks of it) with them. Early on you should work with nothing but hyenas but at some point they should all be replaced with Saint Bernard's. During the transition you have to elaborately compensate the hyenas to keep them in line.
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