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Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

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Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#111

Post by yiny123 »

antisthenes wrote: post #104

I'm surprised no one's mentioned platforms like OnlyFans so far. That's the path forward for adult entertainment content (among other content). It puts the power back in the hands of content creators, and removes a lot of avenues for exploitation. As long as VISA/MC don't do the same thing there, of course.

So was Pornhub. That's what the sex workers in the article are upset about. They were able to sell their videos. They can still make ad revenue but the ban by Visa/MC just ends up hurting them.

I doubt it will be long before the religious lobbies go after Onlyfans.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#112

Post by yarcob »

yiny123 wrote: post #45
marcinzm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OnlyFans seems to be having no issues. I do find it funny how "this site is filled with a lot of rape and child porn" is being framed as "it's being cancelled for no reason." No, there is a reason and other sites with better policies aren't being targeted.

There was a documentary earlier this year about how many underaged people were selling on Onlyfans. https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/5e7dad06-c48d-4509-b3... But there's a dark side: the documentary found evidence of the age verification process being circumvented, meaning under-18s were able to illegally sell explicit content of themselves on the site.

16 year olds circumventing age verification to sell explicit content of themselves is a problem, but at least they are doing it voluntarily.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#113

Post by Anon1096 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #107
manigandham wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use American Express or ACH or wire transfers or cash or Paypal/Venmo/Cashapp or bitcoin. As to your other point, an alternative to Twitter was made. Then it was banned by Google and Apple from devices, and then Amazon from computing infrastructure. It's no longer about an alternative of the primary service but all through the stack and that is much more concerning.

In the USA, domestic wire transfers typically US$20. ACH requires that the receiver provides you with their bank account and routing number, which while common in the EU, is extremely unusual and invasive in a US context. You are right that PayPal/Venmo (same company) may be an alternative for now, although they generally end up applying the same restrictions as Visa/MC. American Express ... wow, it's been years sinc…

> bank account and routing number, which while common in the EU, is extremely unusual and invasive in a US context

So now you're moving the goalposts and saying that it being extremely unusual precludes it as an option? Of course any alternative to the Mastercard/VISA duopoly is going to be unusual. By definition, since they are dominant, any other way of payment will have to be outside the norm.

> American Express ... wow, it's been years since I did this but I think it involves actually going to an Amex brick-and-mortar location, and so wouldn't actually count.

It does not require going in person at all. You can get qualified for a card online and they'll ship it to you.

> Bitcoin is equivalent to paying in a different currency, which while possible, mostly breaks the terms of the comparison

Again, by construction of the question, alternative payment schemes will necessarily be different. The other players here are PayPal, Discover, and AMEX.

The alternatives for Parler (going to another hosting provider than AWS, alternate App Store on Android, and no app on iOS) are at least as unusual compared to the alternatives for payment. Just like your Discover card won't be accepted at most places, or Bitcoin or PayPal, most users are not going to accept a modern day service that doesn't have an app. Or even more egregiously, in Stormfront's case, users are absolutely not going to learn how to use Tor just to access a site. Parler isn't there yet, but it may well be soon if their domain registrar drops them. Or even Level3 or BGP providers.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#114

Post by AnthonyMouse »

yarcob wrote: post #101
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do find it funny how "this site is filled with a lot of rape and child porn" is being framed as "it's being cancelled for no reason." It's because this is the wrong way to deal with that issue. The fairly obviously correct way to do it is that you have law enforcement investigate instances of child pornography, arrest the creators for it, and then issue a court order to the hosting sites to remove the specific in…

According to the NY Times article, what you suggest is exactly what people have tried to do. However, according to the article, it was really hard to get Pornhub to remove illegal videos. And since videos could be downloaded and uploaded by anyone, removed videos quickly showed up on the website again and again. Sex abuse victims have been fighting for years to keep their videos off Pornhub, yet they show up again an…

> However, according to the article, it was really hard to get Pornhub to remove illegal videos.

You're saying that if you go to them with a court order, they don't comply with it? So then have the court find them in contempt. This requires no involvement from Visa or Mastercard.

> And since videos could be downloaded and uploaded by anyone, removed videos quickly showed up on the website again and again.

How are they supposed to know it's the same video? Compare every video to every other one? The uploader would presumably just reencode the video or make whatever other changes to evade an automated system, and a manual system is infeasible. And no matter what Pornhub does, there are six quintillion porn hosting sites on the internet and it would just end up on a different one.

The correct answer is for the police to investigate who is continuing to upload them and impose penalties. Then no more uploads, no more video.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#115

Post by adrian_b »

manigandham wrote: post #11

Similar to the recent actions by Twitter, Google, Apple and Amazon; Visa and Mastercard are private companies and can do whatever they want. Anyone who has an issue with what Visa/MC did must also take issue with the others.

Visa and Mastercard should not do whatever they want, because they are just middlemen in transactions and all their decisions affect their paying customers, much more than themselves.

Visa/MC take the money of their customers, who use their cards, by promising to help them pay for anything they want.

Visa/MC do not have any right to decide unilaterally what their customers might want to buy (as long as no illegal goods are involved), without consulting their customers first.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#116

Post by ars »

folli wrote: post #71
manigandham wrote: post #11

Similar to the recent actions by Twitter, Google, Apple and Amazon; Visa and Mastercard are private companies and can do whatever they want. Anyone who has an issue with what Visa/MC did must also take issue with the others.

I'm getting slightly fatigued with this point of view ("X is a private company and can do what it wants"). If a company reaches a certain size and has a quasi-monopolistic position so that other people or companies depend on it, it starts to have some degree of responsibility towards society that's beyond value maximization for shareholders.

Does that mean you are against AWS, Google, and Apple shutting down Perler? All of those are large enough, and are quasi-monopolistic to meet your definition.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#117

Post by yiny123 »

yarcob wrote: post #112
yiny123 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a documentary earlier this year about how many underaged people were selling on Onlyfans. https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/5e7dad06-c48d-4509-b3... But there's a dark side: the documentary found evidence of the age verification process being circumvented, meaning under-18s were able to illegally sell explicit content of themselves on the site.

16 year olds circumventing age verification to sell explicit content of themselves is a problem, but at least they are doing it voluntarily.

Surely if a 16 year old can circumvent age verification then any criminal can. I understand nothing is perfect, my point was to show that any user generated platform faces the potential of illegal content being hosted.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#118

Post by smt88 »

riffraff wrote: post #49
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, not so much. North American developed countries aren't shining examples of labor protection champions. I'd refer to parts of Europe [1] and New Zealand [2] on how to protect sex workers in a more substantial way. [1] https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/Declaration_bookle... [2] https://www.nzpc.org.nz/The-New-Zealand-Model

Sex workers are vastly exploited in Europe too, sadly. Not all of them are, but it does not seem like the issue has been solved.

I agree, but I think you inverted it.

"Exploitable people are pushed into sex work" is closer to being true than "sex workers are exploited," only because almost no one starts out as a sex worker if they have better opportunities.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#119

Post by LatteLazy »

sweeneyrod wrote: post #69
kbar13 wrote: post #57

sex work should be legalized and regulated, just like marijuana. sex work and porn has been a reality since the beginning of time, and making it "illegal" and letting it fester in dark corners is unhealthy. without proper education, acceptance, and oversight, it encourages predatory behavior and other mental health issues like porn addiction. you don't have to think "porn is good" or "prostitution is good" to acknowl…

The porn that has existed since the dawn of time (I guess cave paintings) is qualitatively different from PornHub content. Arguably even there is even a qualitative difference from the situation even 15 years ago. Then, very few 10-year-olds would have had access to unlimited amounts of high definition hardcore porn; now probably the majority in developed countries can.

200 years ago, those 10 year olds would have seen their parents at it pretty regularly. 2000 years ago, they'd have seen everyone in the tribe with their partners.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#120

Post by LatteLazy »

manigandham wrote: post #11

Similar to the recent actions by Twitter, Google, Apple and Amazon; Visa and Mastercard are private companies and can do whatever they want. Anyone who has an issue with what Visa/MC did must also take issue with the others.

Really they're utilities.
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